Timing shots?

Hot_and_Strong

As a relatively new and inexperienced coffee maker, I was scrolling through this forum and noticed discussion about the timing of shots. Exactly what does this mean? Does this mean that the machine is not pre-programmed to run for a certain time? Do the coffee makers stop each shot manually or do they set it each morning before opening?

Any input that can clear up my confusion would be appreciated.

merlocookie

Timing refers to the amount of time it takes to extract the coffee.

Reschsmooth

I use a stopwatch out of habit (like using a milk thermometer) to use as a guide to determine if my grind setting is ok. I am currently running two blends and an SO (this is all at home) and each requires a different grind setting. I would suggest timing shots should be about feedback rather than a determinant of how long you pull your shots. You don't want to pull a blond shot to ensure you meet the 25 second guideline. P

nzroaster

The time of extraction directly relates to what compounds are extracted from the coffee grinds. Too short a time and you will not extract enough of the rich/full flavours resulting in a sour taste and cardboard like mouthfeel. Too long and you can extract too much caffiene resulting in a bitter (not burnt) taste. A perfectly extracted shot should be between 25 and 35 seconds, but it will vary depending on the hard/softness of the bean. Merlocookie, I know the way that merlo teaches, but they are the only ones that suggest 18 sec extractions. Personally that is too quick!!!

BlueMonkey

From what I've been told by a profesional: 8 - 9 grams of coffee in 18 - 19 seconds ( 30ml ) 16 - 18 grams of coffee in 25 - 27 seconds ( 60ml )

nzroaster

Blue Monkey It makes no difference what you are using. Basically the ideal extraction time is not linked to the volume of espresso or amount of coffee used. Eg. single espresso 7-9 gm, 25-30ml, 25-35 seconds double espresso 14-18 gram, 2 x 25-30ml, 25-35 seconds If we change that formula to get a ristretto single ristretto 7-9 gm, 10-15ml, 25-35 seconds double ristretto 14-18 gram, 2 x 10-15ml, 25-35 seconds One of my stores uses 24gm baskets for 2 x 30-35ml espressos, and still....25-35 seconds

merlocookie

Reiterating, its all about the flavour of the extraction. If your coffee takes 30 seconds to extract and tastes and looks as good as my 20 second extraction, then that's great.  I've seen too many Baristas time an extraction, yet they don't taste the product to see whether its good enough to serve. Also check with the roaster to see what timing guidelines they suggest for their blends and/or equipment.

nzroaster

Agreed Merlocookie, it is completely useless timing shots if you don't taste them. However, The SCAA, AASCA, and every other coffee organisation in the world has agreed on these guidlines (which are only guidlines). Some of the reasons for roasters suggesting outside of these parameters can be suspect, more often then not is in direct relation to the flavour of the beans. Short extractions can often mask the degree of roast. I am not saying this is the case though, but try tasting it with a longer extraction.

Lukey

I am not saying this is the case though, but try tasting it with a longer extraction.

yeah like 40-50 sec, mmmmmmmm choked to the max!!! did someone order 15ml of viscous syrupy espresso. lol

Unknown

All coffee is different timing shots is a very basic guideline and will change from blend to blend.The most important thing is taste, so play around and find an extration time you like. just a tip grind a little corser and dose a little higher nothing is worse than the taste of a underdosed shot :-X. I tend to pull aound the 40 sec shot mark even longer lol people will tell you it's wrong but the flavour is fantastic

Unknown

sorry forgot to mention dont pull 30 ml shots if you are going to extract with 40 sec should be alot less

john

Recently had a cafe owner tell me that all their shots are timed. I put on the shades and wide brimmed hat and paid the cafe a visit. I asked for a latte and watched the extraction. 1. Coffee maker hit the buttons simultaneously ie timer and espresso machine. 2. Extraction started immediately. 3. The coffee maker watched the clock. 4. 30 seconds were up. 5. Coffee maker stopped the extraction. 6. 60 ml (plus) of dishwater was the result. 7. This was topped with some reheated moo juice. No need to say how the coffee was - it was't coffee!!!! If you intend using timers, understand what you are timing. Also keep your eye on the extraction. JD

askthecoffeeguy

I agree, you can use a timer to chase your own tail around the bathroom, but this may not prevent you from slipping on tiles! (bad analogy, I know - but hey, it's the best I could do at short notice) I reckon that the best indication of extraction time comes down to how well the coffee is pouring (Ideally, it should run with something resembling a mouse tail!), combined with actual taste! The extraction times will vary somewhat according to the time of day, amount of humidity in the air, age and type of beans you are using, the sharpness of you blades in the grinder, what sort of grinder you are using, what sort of espresso machine you are using, and the level of skill and expertise of the person making the coffee. Yes, I agree that timing is an important indication of how well the coffee is extracting, but that don't mead diddly-squatt if the resulting coffee tastes like *^$%@$.. The extraction time will also vary depending upon a single or a double shot, and even a 'slow' extraction time can sometimes be 'saved' by a short pour. I suggest that the cafe owner, first, knows what they are doing and what they are talking about (and if not, make every attempt to find out) and second, that they work closely with their coffee supplier to ensure that they are getting the maximum FLAVOUR possible (as opposed to extraction time), from their beans and equipment. Even if you own your own equipment, most roasters will, in my experience, be only to happy to wok with the cafe owner to ensure that their coffee is getting the full attention and proper respect it deserves. ACG  

Lukey

I reckon that the best indication of extraction time comes down to how well the coffee is pouring (Ideally, it should run with something resembling a mouse tail!), combined with actual taste!

now is that a tail from a mouse after he's had a big feed of cheese or a big feed of rat poison, i hope you're referring to the first one. i think it was paul bassett who had a good interpretaion which was something like '' the pour should be flowing straight downwards meaning the water is picking up enough soluble particle to give it that weight, curling inwards too much and there isnt enough soluble particles being passed through and viceversa with the pour being too slow''. bear in mind that the spouts that are on your portafilters can affect the shape of the pour aswell. the ones on our machine are hopeless and its very hard to get a straight down pour just because of their shape. if i'm looking too much into this its cause i dont do much else but make coffee all day. cheers, luke

askthecoffeeguy

the pour should be flowing straight downwards meaning the water is picking up enough soluble particle to give it that weight, curling inwards too much and there isnt enough soluble particles being passed through and viceversa with the pour being too slow''.

i think that the guy should stick to making coffee

One-a-day

i think that the guy should stick to making coffee

Well Duh ,like or dislike him thats how he got where he is today! :P

askthecoffeeguy

yeah well, either the quote is out of context, or the guy is a total tosser, or both ACG

admin

Hi guys - getting a little off topic here - one of the rules of forum is no personal denigration. Let's cut this one here. thanks -A

Lukey

yeah well, either the quote is out of context, or the guy is a total tosser, or both ACG

the quote was taken out of context, it was in one of the crema magazines whre paul basset wrote an article about the perfect extraction. he's not a tosser, actually a very intelligent person who's done a lot for the coffee industry. my comment about the mousetail was that your comment was ambigious as mouse tails can vary depending if they've just eaten cheese (straight and placid) or poison ( shaking vigourously) i''m assuming you referring to the first one. just some light humour. luke

john

Hey Admin I agree. I reckon we would not have to put up with some of this kerrapp if these   persons/experts  had the beans to put their names where their mouth is  ;D I know where I would put my bets in a coffee 'shoot-out' JD

askthecoffeeguy

Hi Guys, I apologise if I put any noses out of joint with my previous comments.   I believe that PB's comments need to be viewed in the context of his article as a whole. When you start dissecting arguments its possible to lose sight of the overall perspective, and the quote in question (to me at least) sounded like some abstract from the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme. Coffee is at the best of times a 'hot topic' (no pun intended), and I guess I expect that the language used to discuss it should be somewhat poetic, and not reduced to quantifiable derivatives. That's all I meant to say. Cheers, ACG

admin

Hi ACG and thanks for your last post. Just to clarify - I actually welcome heated debate on this forum... it's just when we take each other on personally that it's unacceptable. As long as it's genuinely on topic I don't mind people getting passionate at all. Keep up the debates! -A

askthecoffeeguy

fair nuff - now what about 'pre infusion' times? Perhaps we need a new column just to discuss that! ACG

thegoldenbean

i work in a cafe where we dont time our shots and we dose by eye and when the shot begins to" blonde" then you pull it out

askthecoffeeguy

Likewise, my joint is exposed to the elements, so the length of the extraction (if I bothered to time it) varies considerably from first thing in the morning, til late afternoon. As a result I find I have to tweak the grind at least a couple of times a day, to stop it from over extracting, or from running too fast. And being Melbourne, sometime I have to adjust it a couple of times per hour! I work on a 20ml extraction for a single shot, though, and 40ml for a double, and perhaps slightly longer than that if they are takeaway. ACG :-/

Remus

The time of extraction directly relates to what compounds are extracted from the coffee grinds. Too short a time and you will not extract enough of the rich/full flavours resulting in a sour taste and cardboard like mouthfeel. Too long and you can extract too much caffiene resulting in a bitter (not burnt) taste. A perfectly extracted shot should be between 25 and 35 seconds, but it will vary depending on the hard/softness of the bean. Merlocookie, I know the way that merlo teaches, but they are the only ones that suggest 18 sec extractions. Personally that is too quick!!!

i haven't heard 35s extraction times. and 40s ?? christ... i switched the grind and tried pulling a few of those 35 jobbies and they were bloody awful. what did you mean about the roast, maybe i should be roasting more/ less ?? thanx.

nzroaster

what did you mean about the roast, maybe i should be roasting more/ less ?? thanx.

Well, try extracting a brazil and a HG(high grown) bean with the same grind. It is not easy. The hardness of the bean will dictate the grind. Hence, a lighter vs darker roast will need different grinds to acheive similar pours. As for 35 sec extractions its all about the balance of every variable. It is possible, but compensations must be made to the other variables. It is hard to put in words, come on in one day and i'll show you.

askthecoffeeguy

i haven't heard 35s extraction times. and 40s ?? christ...

The high altitude Papa New Guinean Okapa bean that I run with as my house variety takes approx forty seconds to pour on a single extraction.  It's also about how you set up your machine and your grind. Needless to say I mostly run with a double shot, poured short, as unless I'm making a ristretto or an espresso, I cant be @!##*^ waiting around for a forty sec pour! ACG