Quick Mill Achille 0996

Koffee_Kosmo · October 2012

on 1351292385:

With my Izzo the tamped puck is probably 20mm below the shower screen using a dose of 14g - if I were to fill the PF and bring the puck up to the screen I would be massively overdosing and the quality of the coffee would suffer as a result.

I will give it a go and do a single shot in a double basket just for the sake of testing I do however like to pre infuse longer and remote the cup sooner than the end of the shot Even though my Strega is filling the cylinder chamber via the pump I believe that the pressure is somewhere in the 2 bar area KK

SniffCoffee · October 2012

on 1351294181:

I will give it a go and do a single shot in a double basket just for the sake of testing I do however like to pre infuse longer and remote the cup sooner than the end of the shot Even though my Strega is filling the cylinder chamber via the pump I believe that the pressure is somewhere in the 2 bar area KK

I'm pretty sure the pump is set higher KK - Jim Schulman on the other forums talks about how if you leave the lever down and the pump switched on you can pull a shot with the pump only and not use the spring at all. Thanks for the reassurance Lacehim - I can't see how the Achille (the ones Jack has imported anyway) could be HX without a similar switch/pump configuration to the Strega.

Koffee_Kosmo · October 2012

on 1351294904:

I'm pretty sure the pump is set higher KK - Jim Schulman on the other forums talks about how if you leave the lever down and the pump switched on you can pull a shot with the pump only and not use the spring at all. Thanks for the reassurance Lacehim - I can't see how the Achille (the ones Jack has imported anyway) could be HX without a similar switch/pump configuration to the Strega.

I will check it out ? I must have read it somewhere, however it takes about 8 to 10 seconds to fill the cylinder Thinking out aloud? Lets assume the pump is at a higher bar then a jet can control flow He is correct in saying that if the pump is left running for an extended pre infusion it will extract a shot the water needs to go out because its building up pressure and is in constant pressure Whereas if the water is fed by the boiler it has diminishing pressure the longer its activated I forgot to mention that my lever also has 2 springs After some months of ownership I am getting great muscle tone in the upper body :angel: KK

conikal · October 2012

on 1351292385:

.... a reflection of the problem of having a pump driven machine, the puck gets disturbed by the instant stream of high pressure water hitting it as the pump comes on, ....

Your understanding of how the water meets the puck in a pump machine is confused. Most pump M/c's ( E61 group), use a jet (Gicluer) to restrict the flow of the pump during initial infusion. In addition the E61 group has a built in low pressure pre-infusion( 1-2 bar) for the initial 5-7 secs before the full pump pressure is applied. Also in the water path above the puck is the dispersion block and shower screen which both further break down and ditribute the flow across the puck. There is no..... "instant stream of high pressure water hitting it " as you imagined.

Lwowiak · October 2012

on 1351292385:

The distance from screen to puck is irrelevant in a lever machine, the obsession with trying to set the puck as high as possible in relation to the screen (5c techniques etc) is a reflection of the problem of having a pump driven machine, the puck gets disturbed by the instant stream of high pressure water hitting it as the pump comes on, with a lever machine the gentle introduction of low pressure water by pre-infusion ensures that the puck remains undisturbed. With my Izzo the tamped puck is probably 20mm below the shower screen using a dose of 14g - if I were to fill the PF and bring the puck up to the screen I would be massively overdosing and the quality of the coffee would suffer as a result.

Spot on. With the Bosco (and the QM should be the same), an underdose is best. I have not tried 14g, but 15g works well with fresh beans. When using a triple basket, there is a huge range of different results from using 19-20g, through to 24g. Depending on the bean, you can maximise some flavours. A recent Kenyan SO, 21g dose yielded a tonne of winey body and delicious blackcurrant overtones, with just the right amount of acidity. In a double basket the same coffee was a little lacklustre. When you watch the video on youtube of the Bosco 4 grp in action, you see that the dose is probably 14-15g, a firm tamp, then presto. The level of coffee in the basket is low.

galumay · October 2012

on 1351298045:

Most pump M/c's ( E61 group), use a jet (Gicluer) to restrict the flow of the pump during initial infusion. In addition the E61 group has a built in low pressure pre-infusion( 1-2 bar) for the initial 5-7 secs before the full pump pressure is applied. Also in the water path above the puck is the dispersion block and shower screen which both further break down and ditribute the flow across the puck. There is no..... "instant stream of high pressure water hitting it " as you imagined.

If this is the case with YOUR machine, then you also dont have to worry about trying to minimise the gap between shower screen and the top of the pre pressurised puck - just like us lever users.

Paolo5 · October 2012

I just tried a couple of doubles each with 15 gms of grounds with a Yirgacheffe that I roasted 6 days ago. For years I have either had 18 gm or 17 gm "doubles"...depending on machine...never lower. To me this was a counter-intuitive step. Have to admit that the one that I had was really satisfying. The strength was there as well as some layers of different tastes that I have been looking for....more research (quaffing) needed but for now I well-caffeinated!

Lacehim · October 2012

What volume are you getting. My 30mls seems a bit low for double basket, and a full pull. Seeing some results though, and it looks like my distribution from the vario and tamp was rubbish. The vario does dump the coffee into the middle, and possibly with the shallow baskets it wasn't helping me tamp evenly. Have you unpacked it yet Sniff? FYI when you look in the tank, the hose with the bit of the end draws the water in, and needs to be in the tank, the shorter one needs to be above the water line. Got that tip from Paolo. Paolo, I have been keeping my eye on my sight glass and it hasn't bugged either hot or cold.

Kelsey · October 2012

30mls in 25sec from a double is usually what I aim for! Doppio ristretto bliss!

SniffCoffee · October 2012

on 1351311227:

What volume are you getting. My 30mls seems a bit low for double basket, and a full pull. Seeing some results though, and it looks like my distribution from the vario and tamp was rubbish. The vario does dump the coffee into the middle, and possibly with the shallow baskets it wasn't helping me tamp evenly. Have you unpacked it yet Sniff? FYI when you look in the tank, the hose with the bit of the end draws the water in, and needs to be in the tank, the shorter one needs to be above the water line. Got that tip from Paolo. Paolo, I have been keeping my eye on my sight glass and it hasn't bugged either hot or cold.

Unpacked it this afternoon. It's big. My wife has suggested it's a substitute for the fourth child we decided not to have! And noisy! Rattling from the drip tray and somewhere else - Lacehim, I don't think it's a problem with the valve touching the top as the noise continued when I flexed the top metal away from the valve. As my wife said, it's a very good companion for our very noisy fridge. It took a long time to fill the boiler too, strangely. The pump ran for a couple of minutes then stopped. I turned off and on again then it filled some more and stopped again. Finally on the third turn on it filled to the max level and then stopped and the boiler element came on. Lacehim & Paolo, why do you think the shorter hose needs to be above the waterline? I presume it's just a return tube for the pump flow restrictor? Talking with Jack I wonder whether the flow restrictor could be adjusted to increase the flow a bit. Pulled a shot, group wasn't quite up to temp but was sick of waiting - 16 grams as has been suggested, very fine grind and and lightish tamp. Wasn't a gusher, flowed quite nicely but I was a little disappointed in the volume, I was hoping that I could get 60mls from a single pull. I didn't measure it but it didn't look 60mls. The puck looked like it had just kissed the screen, so any more than 16g will likely be tricky. Anyway the shot was quite nice, got approval from the wife, so a good start. The two hole steam tip will take a little getting used to, wasn't able to get a decent whirlpool going but am really appreciating the cool touch wands! Sniff

galumay · October 2012

Its probably best to not use volumes for comparing shots, the crema has a significant impact on volume and its much more meaningful to compare mass of shots rather than volume. As a starting point a 'normal' espresso is about a 50% brew ratio so from a 14g dose we should get around 28g of coffee in the cup. When I am dialling in a new coffee in my machines thats my starting point - 14g, 6 sec pre-infusion, 25-30 sec extraction and about 28g in the cup, once I have the dose and grind dialled in then I can experiment with increasing the dose and coarsening the grind to see if there is another profile that adds anything to the taste in the cup.

Brett H · October 2012

Congratulations to all the recent new owners of these spiffy machines! This thread needs some wonderful pictures just to cement the jealousy factor. Why not some action shots or embedded videos of you making gloopy shots of espresso or some coffee making techniques on display. I have an ornament lever to compliment my dual boiler PID... Make me jealous.... I know you want you... :rofl: :thumb: Seriously, congratulations guys... you deserve every bit of bragging rights coming to you!!!

Lacehim · October 2012

Sniff, my shots are about the same in volume. What grinder are you using? Brett, when I get some consistently decent shots I'll post up some video.

Galumay, what volumes do you get out your Izzo? I'm off to pull some more shots. I did run a courser grind a few times, and with a hard tamp I got a good enough shot. I think my problem is my tamp to be honest. Seriously needs work, and consistency!

SniffCoffee · October 2012

My trusty M4D. Whilst my machines have changed, my grinder has remained the same!

galumay · October 2012

on 1351320410:

Galumay, what volumes do you get out your Izzo?

I honestly dont know, i only work with weight, not volume. As I said it will vary greatly with the crema anyway.

SniffCoffee · October 2012

I just walked past my machine after switching it off about an hour ago.... and like Paolo's the water level in the sight glass is out of sight... I suspect it is a faulty vac breaker valve - as the water level in the water tank has also dropped dramatically I think the vacuum is pulling water from the tank through the pump...

galumay · October 2012

on 1351320410:

Galumay, what volumes do you get out your Izzo?

In the interests of science!! Here are a couple of pics of a shot I just pulled on the Izzo, as you can see its finished at about 28g, its a 14g dose and about a 30 sec extraction after a 6s pre infusion. I put the same amount of water in the same sized glass beside it and compared the volume BELOW the crema, it was about 30-35mls. Coffee is an SO - Ethiopian Guji Sidamo, 7 days post roast. (I dont weigh every shot, once I have a bean dialled in then I can repeat the pour without the balance.)

Paolo5 · October 2012

on 1351322943:

I just walked past my machine after switching it off about an hour ago.... and like Paolo's the water level in the sight glass is out of sight... I suspect it is a faulty vac breaker valve - as the water level in the water tank has also dropped dramatically I think the vacuum is pulling water from the tank through the pump...

Hi Sniff, Did you make sure that the shorter of the 2 silicone hoses was up out of the tank water? If not, it has siphoned water from the tank back into the boiler on shutdown.

conikal · October 2012

on 1351307593:

If this is the case with YOUR machine, then you also dont have to worry about trying to minimise the gap between shower screen and the top of the pre pressurised puck - just like us lever users.

If that were the case, there would be no need for different sized filter baskets for single, double & triple shots ?

galumay · October 2012

on 1351327432:

If that were the case, there would be no need for different sized filter baskets for single, double & triple shots ?

I think there is, usually single baskets taper in at the bottom and have less holes in the bottom of the basket, and i guess most standard baskets wouldnt allow overdosing to the extent of a triple shot. In the case of the Izzo I can pull normal doubles at 14g in the standard basket and I can updose to about 19g which is pretty close to a triple if not quite, I shall have to experiment and try with a single dose of 7g and see if it will work. So maybe you are correct and there is not really any need. (in the case of big Levers) I am guessing that in the case of modern pump machines the different size baskets are more to allow easy dosing without weighing - ie fill basket with grounds, swipe level with the top of the basket and then tamp - rather than anything else.

SniffCoffee · October 2012

on 1351326040:

Hi Sniff, Did you make sure that the shorter of the 2 silicone hoses was up out of the tank water? If not, it has siphoned water from the tank back into the boiler on shutdown.

I've pulled the shorter hose out and drained the excess water out of the boiler. It's heating now...it will be interesting to see whether it happens again as I think the water tank was drained below the level of the shorter hose when it happened yesterday...

SniffCoffee · October 2012

on 1351365028:

I've pulled the shorter hose out and drained the excess water out of the boiler. It's heating now...it will be interesting to see whether it happens again as I think the water tank was drained below the level of the shorter hose when it happened yesterday...

Success! Thanks Paolo. Pulled a double basket - one pull gets just under 30 mls from a single pull. Not quite the 60ml double I was hoping for...

dpiette · October 2012

Here is a pull today: [attachimg=1] [attachimg=2] [attachimg=3] That is 15.6 g of coffee, then 43.4 g of espresso. It was about a 25 second pour, with a pretty long pre-infusion (probably about 20 seconds. I got distracted by my dog)

Lacehim · October 2012

I've had some success today. I've filled the filter, and leveled it, then stirred it using a paperclip (very technical eh) and then tamped, making sure that it's level. This machine really needs to be level I feel. That is working consistently, a the pours are fantastic. I was using some 5 day old Pioneer coffee, but I even pulled 4-5 shots with Kelsey's Blend which is around 21 days old using the same method, and go a very similar pour. No more drips during prefusion, and it's much slower and much more controlled.

Had a big smile on my face today! I'm with sniff on the 60mls thing. I thought these big commercial groups would produce a 60ml shots no worries, ie so that I can split it for 2 drinks. Seems not, but an improvement over the lusso's 15ml shots that I could normally get. When I get some quiet time to myself (without kids demanding and the TV blaring) I will try and post up a video. Here's a successful shot, bit blond near the end, but nice crema.

galumay · October 2012

on 1351388731:

Here is a pull today: That is 15.6 g of coffee, then 43.4 g of espresso. It was about a 25 second pour, with a pretty long pre-infusion (probably about 20 seconds. I got distracted by my dog)

That ratio makes it pretty much a Lungo rather than an espresso, see if you go a little finer on the grind if you can get the brew ratio nearer 50% (15.6g coffee for 31g espresso) - and compare the flavours.

Lacehim · October 2012

Here you go, just for you KK. My first ever youtube video (no I didn't want to appear in it, apart from a tshirt moving around, thanks very much). I've certainly made progress since Kesley's visit on Friday.

PS. You can hear the pump running during prefusion, but it was only filling the boiler! Noisy bugger isn't it! I'll be sorting that out very soon! [embed=425,349]<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/XZigrDWykN8"; frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>[/embed]

Kelsey · October 2012

Looking good! Worthy of a kitchen renno

Koffee_Kosmo · October 2012

Your getting there :thumb: thanks for posting the video I have never heard my pump turn on during lever take over after pre infusion/fill or during steaming It waits till the task is finished KK

galumay · October 2012

Looking good mate! That looked like it would be a tasty shot. Enjoy. :coffee2:

Lacehim · October 2012

KK, the Strega boiler is similar to the Londinium I in size (around 2lt). The boiler for the Achilles is 4.5lt so possibly it has less impact when the boiler is filled?!? Don't take my word for it, it's only a theory. The pump only fills the boiler with water, there is no pre-fusion by the pump like the Strega. Also these machines can be plumbed and have a drain attached. The set up is rather neat. Under the machine is a switch to turn it from plumb to tank, and to swap it over you would just have to attach a hose & flick the switch. The drip tray has a nut in it, and a hose attaches to a black plastic cup underneath. To return it to tank set up, you just unhook the hose and put the screw back in the driptray hole, and it would then hold water again. Nice feature eh? Its one of the things that sold me on this machine, because I intend to plumb it when I renovate my kitchen, but I can also move it around, use it for small events/fundraisers etc.

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