Londinium I Lever Espresso Machine

Lwowiak · April 2013

That review is enlightening. Apparently a Boema makes better shots. Way to go Boema! I wonder what parameters were used? I have a Boema and a Bosco, and after reading that comment am compelled to comment. Using the same dose, grind and technique on a Boema that produces a good shot, will not guarantee a good shot on the Bosco. In fact it will guarantee a crap shot. The review just highlights the fact that being a "CSer" does not make you an espresso expert. Levers need a different and refined technique, which is clearly demonstrated by this "review". Also, one is assuming the coffee used was up to par. I was in Adelaide recently, and had the "pleasure" of a well made espresso (by a Barista with awards- so they must be good

) on a LM. Beans were roasted by CS. The coffee was good, but I have had much better in many other establishments. I found it too acidic and lacking in body for my tastes, but given the blend and roast depth, not much more could be expected. If this type of coffee was used, and the typical "flavour of the month" technique of updosing was used, then of course the Boema would shine. When I started using coffee roasted appropriately, and adjusted my technique, the Bosco produced beautiful espresso. It still boils down to technique and "good" coffee.

Brett H · April 2013

on 1365205548:

Oh another thing I didn't mention. If I had a commercial interest in trashing a new machines reputation, I might consider buying one of the machines, loosen a few bits here and there, overtighten others, maladjust it, scratch it up a bit and lend to someone for an independent review. Just saying. Obviously no ethical business would do such a thing.

I didn't read or suspect that this was the case. These guys have everything to gain by liking them, potentially buying 10 of them and offering service and support... And the ongoing sales of beans and peripherals. Similar was done with the Behmor... Although I bought mine from Neil at Ministry of Grounds and received amazing after-sales support from him. I don't think he sells them any more sadly. Anyway, I think you're over thinking your conspiracy theories!

ash · April 2013

After seeing the post on the other forum, and it's subsequent responses, I though I'd take the covers of mine today and have a look see and at the same time put some Insul-Bright around the boiler. First up, The comments about the welds on the drip tray that you don't see when the drip tray are in position are mainly true. They're welds alright, nice consistent work on them. Polished? Nope. Problem? Nope. The only time you're going to see them is when you take the drip tray out to empty it or give it a wash. Amazingly I didn't see any dings on my boiler either. No problems with it leaking at all in the last three weeks or so that I've had it. However it does get hot. Just like a La Pavoni does. Thats why I took the covers off to put the insulbrite in. Not the simplest task to do as I had to undo most of the plumbing to get enough space under the boiler to push the insulbrite through. But fairly straight forward for most people I would think.

ash · April 2013

The case side are easily removed using a 3mm Allen key to undo the screws. If they are done up to tight then you will see a little warping of the case around the screw. If it worries you to much it can easily be remedied by backing off the screw a fraction. The case panels are all from folded or cut stainless steel. Where it has been folded, particularly in corners, you will find a small gap (approx 1mm in my case) with a round hole in the corner. For any one that is interested, this is done to reduce cracking in the steel over time. At least that what I was taught when I did a bit of fabrication as part of my trade course.

ash · April 2013

So after 3 weeks, am I still happy with it? Yes. Are there some things prospective buyers need to be aware of? Yes. It has a fine tolerance for grind size. A little to far one way and you will have a quick pour, a little to far the other way and you will over extract or choke it, So I would recommend that a buyer have a quality grinder that uses a worm gear or other other mechanism to allow complete control over the grind. I find my Rosco hand grinder gives me good results, along with the Macap M4. On the plus side of this so far, has been the lack of need to constantly adjust the grind during the day, or for different beans (so far at least). That may be due to the fairly steady weather we've been having up here in Townsville lately. I've used 4 different beans with this machine since I've had it, and the grinder adjustment, once made, has been good for all of them. As Fresh Coffee has already pointed out earlier, due to the nature of a lever you don't get a huge amount of body with your coffee, But I still reckon you get an amazingly defined bunch of flavours from this machine. I've also found that a bean that is excessively bright or acidic when ground with the Rosco is more muted in flavour when ground with the Macap, which I put down to the different burrs (conical vs flat). I't fun trying each bean through each grinder. I'm finding that updosing on this machine is a bit of a no-no, as the flavour falls off. Dosing on the low side of 15g is quite nice, but the quality varied between different beans. Over the next few weeks I plan on playing around with an 18g, 20g and 22g baskets and see what happens in the cup. So far I've pretty much just stuck with the stock 15g basket, but will also start playing with the 15g VST basket as well. Back to the machine I go!

derrilex · April 2013

on 1365224350:

First up, The comments about the welds on the drip tray that you don't see when the drip tray are in position are mainly true. They're welds alright, nice consistent work on them. Polished? Nope. Problem? Nope. The only time you're going to see them is when you take the drip tray out to empty it or give it a wash.

Problem - yes. All welds on SS need to be pickled, passivated and polished to restore the chrome oxide layer that gives SS its properties. Without doing so it is just as prone to corrosion as mild steel. You should coat them in penetrol (its clear so you wont see it) to give them protection.

Lacehim · April 2013

I was mobile earlier so didn't get time to read the whole review. Interesting, but I find it hard to believe that Andy had that many issues and didn't take them up with Reiss direct. There's no mention of him contacting him about the problems. If you bought a new car and it was supplied with dings, and leaking engine oil you would take it back or at least phone the dealer. :-| How the coffee out of yours Ash? I have the same group on the Quick Mill, same low shower screen and use a triple basket without any issues.

The double I'm still working on. Also the pump comes on now and again too, and so would most tanked levers so that's a moot point I think unless you plumb it in and bypass the pump. Interesting re the finish on the luxe though. I bet your glad you bought the stock one Ash!

Koffee_Kosmo · April 2013

on 1365226607:

How the coffee out of yours Ash? I have the same group on the Quick Mill, same low shower screen and use a triple basket without any issues. The double I'm still working on. Also the pump comes on now and again too, and so would most tanked levers so that's a moot point I think unless you plumb it in and bypass the pump. Interesting re the finish on the luxe though. I bet your glad you bought the stock one Ash!

Never had the Strega pump come on to fill the boiler while the Lever is in operation during a shot ( The pump is activated to fill the water cylinder for a few seconds ) KK

ash · April 2013

on 1365226137:

Problem - yes. All welds on SS need to be pickled, passivated and polished to restore the chrome oxide layer that gives SS its properties. Without doing so it is just as prone to corrosion as mild steel. You should coat them in penetrol (its clear so you wont see it) to give them protection.

I'll go take a few more pictures of welds with a better camera rather than with the phone and post them up here for you to have a better look at. You should be able to see them better than the ones I took using the camera. Are you saying the welds should be polished to the same finish as the rest of the sheet? Or will a penetrol finish not show upat all? Just curious, as my training was with aircraft aluminium was part of an aicraft technician course, so I don't have much exposure to stainless and it's properties. Lacehim, KK The pump comes on a various times, and always after it's been switched on in the morning. It'll come on during the pre- infusion phase about 1 in 3 or 4 times, but I haven't had it come on during the extraction phase so far. When it does come on during the pre infusion phase, it has been after the handle has been cocked and the water cylinder is full. As for the coffee, I'm happy so far, but I've yet to try some of the coffees I've roasted differently for this machine yet. That'll be the next bag up. It'll be interesting to see what a triple basket does for it. Edit: attached photos of the weld for derrilex to have a better look at.

derrilex · April 2013

on 1365228228:

Are you saying the welds should be polished to the same finish as the rest of the sheet? Or will a penetrol finish not show upat all? Just curious, as my training was with aircraft aluminium was part of an aicraft technician course, so I don't have much exposure to stainless and it's properties. Edit: attached photos of the weld for derrilex to have a better look at.

Exactly right Ash. You can clearly see the HAZ (heat affected zone) produced from welding and its this area where the stainless steel no longer has its protective chromic oxide layer which gives it its outstanding anti corrosion properties. The best solution would be to take the offending part to a stainless fab shop or a metal polisher and have them clean em' up for a six pack. If thats not possible give them a coat of penetrol with a artists brush for protection. Penetrol is clear - ish so the welds will appear the same but at least have a some protection.

Lacehim · April 2013

on 1365228228:

The pump comes on a various times, and always after it's been switched on in the morning. It'll come on during the pre- infusion phase about 1 in 3 or 4 times, but I haven't had it come on during the extraction phase so far. When it does come on during the pre infusion phase, it has been after the handle has been cocked and the water cylinder is full.

Ash, mine is the same. It's a different design to the Strega KK, I think the pump only comes on during pre-fusion because a volume of water has been taken out of the boiler to fill the group.

Koffee_Kosmo · April 2013

on 1365240467:

Ash, mine is the same. It's a different design to the Strega KK, I think the pump only comes on during pre-fusion because a volume of water has been taken out of the boiler to fill the group.

That's was my assumption as well The reason the Strega does not fill the boiler when pulling a shot is because its shot water source is a HX curcuit that has a direct line to the tank water KK

conikal · April 2013

on 1365236565:

Exactly right Ash. You can clearly see the HAZ (heat affected zone) produced from welding and its this area where the stainless steel no longer has its protective chromic oxide layer which gives it its outstanding anti corrosion properties. The best solution would be to take the offending part to a stainless fab shop or a metal polisher and have them clean em' up for a six pack. If thats not possible give them a coat of penetrol with a artists brush for protection. Penetrol is clear - ish so the welds will appear the same but at least have a some protection.

Another option... ( from a brewers site)..

....To passivate stainless steel at home without using a nitric acid bath, you need to clean the surface of all dirt, oils and oxides. The best way to do this is to use an oxalic acid based kitchen cleanser ( like Barkeepers Friend), and a non-metallic green or white scrubby pad. Don't use steel wool, or any metal pad, even stainless steel, because this will actually promote rust. Scour the surface thoroughly and then rinse and dry it with a towel. Once you have cleaned it to bare metal it will re-passivate itself.

Ol Grumpy · April 2013

I haven't done much with stainless steel welding, but my understanding is you clean the weld and it's the exposure to Oxygen (air we breathe) that oxidises the surface and gives the stainless it's protection/resistance to rusting. On the flip side- a little known fact about stainless is that if you deprive the surface of oxygen- stainless is very susceptible to 'crevice corrosion'- this rears its ugly head in places like wooden boats where fixtures fastened to timber with shiny stainless steel bolts- fail and fall off unexpectedly... The section of fastening (bolt/screw/whatever) that has been buried in timber and deprived of oxygen looks like rats have chewed away at it- while the 'exposed' sections can be as shiny as the day it was installed. Which is why you should *NEVER* use Stainless Steel for Keel Bolts- Monel is the best- but $$$$... A reasonable alternative that can outperform Stainless is Hot Dip Gal Steel Bolts- but regular tightening is required to cope with 'stretch'. So, for places like KK's deck- Gal nails can outperform stainless screws- because the thin shaft of most decking screws will fail due to crevice corrosion well before the gal nail rusts out. Only thing is- at some point the nails may need to be hammered tight again. 10 min job. So, lets not get carried away- clean the welds as described- if you are so inclined, and let the air do it's job. I wouldn't use Penetrol- even though it's a great product- because in this application you don't need to and secondly- you will make your machine oily and might stain clothes, benches, etc.... Unnecessarily. It's overkill which our mate : D is want to do...

derrilex · April 2013

I dont rate most SS screws but these are just awesome and dear as poison. Naturally I have used them on the pool deck but only because I was fixing to LVL's. If I went with a hardwood subframe it would have been gal twist shanks all day, recessed into the decking to allow for future sanding if required (ala KK's deck). I hate SS twist shanks nails for all the reasons you mentioned plus their cost is ridiculous. However, SS needs to be polished after welding to restores its properties. A tiny dab with a art brush and a few hours is all thats required with penetrol ( if polishing is not a option). It dries properly, does not remain tacky or oily and unless applied with a spray gun will not get anywhere near fingers, let alone clothes and benches :-* http://www.scrooz.com.au/products/RazrDeck-torx-drive-decking-screws-stainless-steel-10g-x-50mm-pack-of-100.html

UNM · April 2013

on 1365215720:

These guys have everything to gain by liking them, potentially buying 10 of them and offering service and support... And the ongoing sales of beans and peripherals. Similar was done with the Behmor

Thing is, the Londinium is a direct sales model, so only way to make local money is as a service agent (authorised or not), unless Londinium decide to handle things differently, which they have not suggested is likely. The Behmor is fundamentally different in that respect. Not that I suggested that anything underhand happened in this case, or that there was any conspiracy. I do believe the CS review was intended to criticise the machine and, as I stated, this can actually give a manufacturer MORE useful information than an entirely positive review. The manufacturers response in such cases is also very informative to the general public as it sets expectations on what might happen if they also experience problems. Would love to know what went on when the faults were initially reported to Londinium, but that is obviously not something the reviewer or original purchaser wish to share. Looking at the photos and info ash posted here (thanks for that), it does lend some support to Andy Freeman's theory posted elsewhere that his machine was perhaps a rare dud, rather than a general problem.

Brett H · April 2013

You think they'd get Andy F's machine absolutely spot-on wouldn't you?? Reiss knows he owns a commercial forum... :pan

lespresso · April 2013

hey brett, were certainly aware of that & did take extra care of that particular machine so in no particular order 1. the unpolished welds underneath the tray will not rust or corrode. pickling makes it shiny, nothing more. it is exactly the same as every other espresso machine manufacturer has done for 20 years with no issues. just plain wrong. 2. boiler ding: it didn't leave the factory like that as we went to an extra special effort with this machine as we expected something like this. we can accuse DHL of many things, but not this i don't think 3. the taste - i think the machine as a whole has left a bitter taste in their mouth don't you think?

4. on/off switch 80C. the only way this could happen is if they sat the machine in direct Aussie summer sun. given that much the same thing will happen to the dashboard of your car I'm not too bothered. not one owner has even mentioned this as an issue in the 86 machines sold 5. did it have anything to do with me refusing Andy's entreaties to take a CS sponsorship package for almost as much as the price of a Luxe, but to pay for it by understating the value of the goods when i shipped them? imagine if i had agreed? then he would be able to hang me out to dry for defrauding the Australian tax authorities. i was pretty sure 'the review' was going to happen, so I'm just pleased we got paid for the machine, as opposed to sending it for free & getting 'the review' anyway 6. finally, i emailed twice to enquire if the machine arrived with damage (the problems we have had with shipping damage i have published extensively already) and once was told he was too busy to have even looked at it and the second email i don't think i received any reply - not sure. One thing i am sure of is we never received any communication pointing out these issues. i fully expect the machine is now in pieces in someone's workshop and they are working flat out trying to copy it all i can say is Andy had, like any of you, 30 days from the day on which the machine arrived in which to return the machine for a full refund if it fails to meet your expectations. for whatever reason we never heard from him best reiss.

UNM · April 2013

interesting response. Ash - as you mentioned machine being hot, what sort of temp does your switch get to? Reiss, what is considered normal for these machines? The 30 day return for refund - how does that work? Buyer pays return shipping to you? Or pays for all costs in shipping/taxes? Obviously that affects how bad an issue needs to be before deciding whether to keep or return.

lespresso · April 2013

UNM All we ask is that you retain and use all of the original packaging You just tell us to get DHL to come and pick it up It won't cost you a penny Reiss ps - if the temp switch was anything like that hot we would have a deluge of emails from people saying i just burnt myself turning off the machine. we haven't one.

UNM · April 2013

Typical refund would be less shipping costs in at least one direction. That policy certainly adds some confidence when buying a product over the net. Just out of interest, what percentage of sales result in a return?

lespresso · April 2013

1 in 86 (the guy 'couldn't get on with' an HG1 either, so i bought that off him too)

derrilex · April 2013

Reiss, have a look here. http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=2

lespresso · April 2013

its the underside of a drip tray Derallex, not the inside of a potable water container i repeat, this is commonly used by all the espresso machine manufacturers, there is nothing particularly innovative or out of step here it will not rust its all about the application as to the level of finish that is required.

Brett H · April 2013

Thanks for your input here Reiss. Very interesting. Did you think of posting like this on CS?

derrilex · April 2013

Yes yes yes, I understand where the welds are Reiss and that they in no part form a potable water container. That is irrelevant. The only point I want to convey is that while they perform no vital function and don't need to look pretty it is good practice to post treat any SS weld, regardless. To say that its commonly used by all espresso machine manufacturers for 20 years doesn't make it right, just cheap. Attention to detail is what makes great products great.

lespresso · April 2013

im not a member of CS, and i really think it would be a waste of time, don't you? i've posted here at the insistence of every other Aussie L1 owner who are very happy we had shipping damage issues. no more. resolved.

lespresso · April 2013

Derrilex: its all about cost. in principle I agree with you, but what happens if the AUD weakens relative to the GBP? we'll have the perfect machine that no one can afford to buy Personally I'm not happy with a fabricated tray of any kind and would like to have a single pressing we've got to get some runs on the board first - we've only just got started L2, which you will see shortly, has the new Fracino wire drip tray, which is what i would like on L1 one day its all about cost

Ol Grumpy · April 2013

Congratulations on selling 86 machines Reiss... That's an impressive 1st launch result- by any measure. With numbers like that and a 1st Launch to boot... Well numbers alone will tell you there will be teething problems and 'issues' to deal with... Congratulations again and thanks for 'popping-by' into our little corner of the globe. Sincere best wishes for the future development of the Londinium line.... With respect to all..."is it any wonder the natives are getting restless?" :tic

lespresso · April 2013

Ol Grumpy Thanks for your encouragement I read & re-read the bit that says 'our little corner of the globe' It took a while for the penny to drop - but that's actually what this is all about Because Australia is such a coffee nation, it isn't a 'little corner of the globe' at all As far as coffee & espresso machines go it is one of the most important in the world Whilst the USA is far bigger in terms of population, you simply don't have the widespread interest in coffee in the USA - if you've ever been there you'll know what i mean The UK is in its infancy in terms of gourmet coffee - it exists, but its still incredibly niche Germany is an important market too But Australia is big. I see it as being as important as the USA for lever machines and treat it as such And that's what this scrap is all about at the end of the day; the size of opportunity that the Australian coffee market represents The funny part is our offering is incredibly niche - our sales numbers will hardly cause a ripple on the pond for our competitors That's business

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