How much extraction pressure can be effected by beans

jparnold · February 2016

Hello
My first post.
I just purchased a new machine and think that I have it mastered although I cannot get a 'proper' pressure during extraction (the machine has a pressure gauge) using coffee beans purchased at a supermarket (very well known brand) even though I have the grind set to the finest and I am tamping as hard as I can and according to the instructions I am using a correct 'dose' (the machine also comes with what is called a 'razor' for ensuring the dose is correct).
I have been told that for best results only use freshly roasted beans and within 3 weeks of the roasted date and not prepackaged beans from a supermarket.

BUT will that solve my problem of not getting sufficient pressure during extraction?

My daughter has the same machine and using the same brand of pre packaged beans and says that she gets good (high) pressure.
What could the problem be for me?

Brett H · February 2016

Hi JP and welcome. Wow... Where to start.... What machine mate? What Grinder? What be.... scratch that question and go get yourself some fresh roasted beans. If you want the best money can buy go to www.mycuppa.com.au or www.beanroasters.com.au I'm thinking at this stage your beans are the issue but some Breville grinders have had issues with needing shims to make them grind fine enough. They have had this problem fixed with the latest stock I believe but if yours is older stock....

jparnold · February 2016

Breville Barista BES670 machine with inbuilt grinder. I did contact Breville 2 weeks ago when I considered that I shouldn't have to set the grind so fine with a new machine. They did send a shim kit but the packet states that if it isn't installed by a Breville technician the warranty might become void - why he sent it I'll never know as I told him ther machine was only 2 weeks old at the time. I haven't installed it for obvious reasons. My daughter has the same machine (I bought the same because of her satisfaction) and is using the same beans (Vittoria 'Mountain Grown') and grinds a bit coarser than I do and gets extraction pressure almost in the 'over extracted' area of the gauge. What could cause that? Could her beans be fresher than mine? When I grind my beans the grind looks quite dry (shouldn't it look a bit oily?) and (hard to tell but) about the same finest (maybe slightly finer) as that of the ground PEPPER you buy at the supermarket. I intend to get some freshly roasted beans from a nearby roaster and try them. Maybe I will ask them to grind a small quantity to a grind finest they recommend and compare the pressure.

Brett H · February 2016

I reckon you need to install the shim kit. Contact a Breville service agent as it should be a warranty job due to the machine being unable to do what it's advertised to do. Once you do you'll taste a huge difference... Then... if you switch to fresh non-supermarket beans, well that's when the real fun begins :thumb: These smaller domestic machines are capable of good coffee once they're set up properly. Even the top end of the market is not immune from these sorts of issues unless they're sold by a retailer like Cosmorex who bench test every machine and suffer the manufacturing glitches before we the customer suffer them

. No such luck with appliance retailers but the difference in price takes some of the sting out of any initial hiccoughs!

FreshCoffee2 · February 2016

on 1456395570:

...I intend to get some freshly roasted beans from a nearby roaster and try them. Maybe I will ask them to grind a small quantity to a grind finest they recommend and compare the pressure.

For starters, you are on the right track. After that, its hard to know what you mean with your comparison of the grind size to ground pepper, however if you mean the kind of grind size that comes from a proprietary pepper grinder then it *could* be too coarse... or it might not. Very difficult to make that observation without being there to see. So...first try a non supermarket packet of coffee. That will have you using beans that have good density ie have not lost it through sitting on a shelf for a long time gone stale. There is plenty of time to worry about shims, of which incidentally I am not a great fan of making clients do it themselves. If a grinder is *not fit for purpose* straight out of the box by virtue of it not being able to grind an appropriate grind for the equipment, then it should be modified / shimmed by the manufacturers service agent... Also. Did you not say you bought the equipment on the basis of your daughter's recommendation on the same machine? If so, then you have a ready made method of comparison of grind size by comparing to her machine, but you must use the same packet of coffee for a one on one comparison, so the beans / grinds to be compared have the same density and should therefore grind to a similar/same particle size for a similar cup of coffee. Also2. use coffee ground in your grinder to make coffee on her machine to see what happens! There are enough ways to skin the cat ! Hope that helps.

jparnold · February 2016

Thanks guys, Will do the 'test' using coffee from my Daughter and vice versus later today. HOWEVER I purchased some beans from a nearby roasting company yesterday and was told that they had been roasted during the past week. They also ground a small quantity in their 'commercial' grinder at their normal espresso setting. I could NOT get much pressure (below the 'espresso range' on the gauge - in the pre infusion area) and virtually no crema and weak tasting using the coffee they ground for me. Using the 'freshly roasted' beans I ground at setting '1' (the finest setting) I got a good pressure (almost to the 'overextracted' area on the gauge) BUT that was with the finest grind setting. As the settings range from 1 to 20 I would have thought that a higher setting (5 or more?) should be enough. The grinder is an integral part of the machine). I am trying to determine if I have grounds (sorry for the pun) to get a replacement machine or refund as it is only 4 weeks old and I have never been able to get a decent extraction pressure since it came out of the box - at first I put that down to learning how to use it correctly.

Brett H · February 2016

Hi mate, chances are then the issue is with your grinder and a replacement machine may well have the same issue if from that batch. Get the shims installed and enjoy your coffee. Their (roasting company) espresso grind for their machine will have little in common with your machine. Every machine will be different even those that are the same model. Good of them to try to help you out... Sounds like a good company!

Koffee_Kosmo · February 2016

Test the machine with a blind filter This will determine if you have a pump problem or a gauge problem Next test is to grind so fine that it chokes the machine Then back off and grind slightly coarser in small increments till you have the correct resistance of puck to pump pressure You may need to do this with every new bag of beans KK

Brett H · February 2016

Good advice KK but the OP is grinding on the finest setting I think.

jparnold · February 2016

Yes I am grinding on the finest setting - that is my main concern (that I need to be grinding on the finest setting to get reasonable if any pressure). What is a 'blind filter'? A chap at Breville talked me through a machine test for pressure getting me to use the cleaning disk (a rubber disk with a small single hole it in) in the single cup filter basket (it covers the filter cup) and then 'brewing' a single cup and watch the pressure gauge. Even though it barely moved off the bottom of the dial he said that indicated that the pressure was ok. How on earth such a low pressure indicates the machine is pumping correctly I'll never know but then again I am new to all this. I also did another test by overdosing (putting as much tamped ground coffee as I could in the 'portafilter'. That resulted in the pressure going quite high. He said that indicated that there was nothing wrong? Maybe it's all down to the grinder then and that it requires shimming. Not very good though buying a brand new machine which requires immediate servicing meaning a trip to the nearest service centre. Wow I have learned a lot since my initial post. Thanks everyone. I spoke to the 'barista' at our local coffee shop today who advised they purchase 40kgs roasted beans every 10 days and they are roasted the same day that it is delivered but that also means the last is used 10 days after roasting. He also reckoned that Arabica beans are the best and that they are grown in high altitudes. Anyway I am getting off the track a bit.

Moon · February 2016

1. Get your Daughter to grind some beans that works fine for her machine .. and try it in yours, which is exactly the same machine/grinder. 2. If her pressure is good .. and yours isn't .. then I'd reckon it is either your grinder .. of coffee machine that is faulty. 3. Does your Daughter live close? Invite her over with machine and her beans .. or you go over there. 4. Compare the difference and take notes. 5. Report back here with the results/differences .. if any. 6. Use same beans .. same grind for both machines 7. Get her to make a coffee using both machines using her usual grind setting that has been working for her. 8. Ask your Daughter .. who has more experience with that machine .. what she thinks is going wrong .. or different when using your machine. 9. Use a clock or watch with a second hand to get the pour time in both machines. Should be around 25-30 seconds for 40 ml. Mark a line on your glass

Brett H · February 2016

Hi JP Agree with much that you say including you're 'not very good' statement. One of the co-Admin of this site had a hard coffee bean almost kill his Breville Smart Grinder while his Italian Ranilio Grinder just simply ground them. That Italian grinder however retails for more than double the Breville so it's not a level playing field. If you're remotely handy (own a socket and a couple of screwdrivers) just shim the bottom burr as per the instructions and move on to coffee nirvana. The machine will be capable of good coffee and won't it be great to laud over us that you're making coffee as good as outs on a machine that's a quarter the price! :thumb:

jparnold · February 2016

Well after testing with my daughters machine I am virtually convinced my grinder needs a shim or 2. My daughter has the same machine and was using the same (supermarket) beans. She ground some of her beans at setting 4 brought them to my place (15 minutes away) and she dosed a single cup and tamped at 'her pressure' (to ensure everything as similar as possible) and we then did the brew using my machine. The pressure gauge went around to about 3/4 of the scale which she said was much the same as she gets on her machine. I ground some of my beans (same brand different batch maybe) with my machine at setting 1 (should have also used 4 the same as she uses but that doesn't matter - see below). She took them home, dosed a single cup and tamped at 'her pressure' and did the brew. She said her pressure gauge went to about the same place (3/4). So everything is the same EXCEPT she uses grind setting 4 and I use 1 (to get the same pressure). IMHO my grinder needs a shim or 2 so that I can get the same pressure with a higher (number) setting on my grinder (so that I don't have to have my grinder set at the finest setting). What do you think? I have emailed my contact at Breville advising him this but also advising that I am reluctant to fit any shims (supplied by Breville) as the packet states that the warranty may be voided if not fitted by a Breville Service Technician. I will be interested to see what he says especially as the machine was like this straight out of the box.

Koffee_Kosmo · February 2016

Be aware that some service agents have backlogs and it may take weeks to do the shim fitment

FreshCoffee2 · February 2016

It may well be an easy job to do the shims but i have a real problem with manufacturers that sell stuff that isnt fit for purpose, and then are allowed to get away withy it by dumping the responsibility for rectifying it back onto the client. And then they tell you that if you do fir them and have a problem, its not their problem? Breathtakingly arrogant. When clients buy something from us and there is any form of problem anytime afterwards and the clients think we havent rectified it to their satisfaction, they scream all the way to the high court. If Breville sells something that isnt fit for purpose straight out of the box, they are allowed to get away with it.... Typical...One rule for the big guys, and another for the rest of us. Level playing field????????????? In an ideal world, you would take the machine to their registered repairer and get them t do it for you. As a claim under warranty, the job should be given priority (ie front of the line despite other machines in for repair first) and be given back to you in reasonable time....say....a couple of days, or certainly within the week max? Of course the way you get done is that you dont want to lose your machine for a period, so are essentially pushed to do the job yourslf. But if you look at it another way, the machine has never worked properly from day one. Ergo if you take it in you are not losing anything of any great value in terms of missing out on a properly made coffee...because it has never made one yet.... Thats my logic anyway. If you dont make them do it at their cost (they have to pay their repairer to do the job as the repairer is not breville and wont do it for nothing), they will not learn to fix their production and QA problems. For heavens sake, this shimming business has been going on ever since they released the grinder some years ago. Have they not learned anything? *****************************

on 1456550188:

I spoke to the 'barista' at our local coffee shop today who advised they purchase 40kgs roasted beans every 10 days and they are roasted the same day that it is delivered but that also means the last is used 10 days after roasting. He also reckoned that Arabica beans are the best and that they are grown in high altitudes. Anyway I am getting off the track a bit.

As a pro roaster and supplier with many years experience in business, can I please note that you should not take muc notice of what some random barista says, unless the baristas bona fides are known to be without question. This is because they dont usually know much and will just say what they have been told to say or what they think they should say to keep the mystique of "good" coffee rolling along. Their field is not coffee roasting business (and all it involves) and supply, it is in running a food business and managing (or trying to) a coffee making machine. Different spheres of expertise and different industry altogether. It would be like lumping a barista into the dairy industry, because they use milk.....or as being in the meat industry because their kitchen puts out a steak... ;D It is a management and administrative nightmare to try and run a roasting business on the basis of "roast on demand", waiting for clients to place their orders because otherwise, you dont have the stock roasted to deliver. Additionally the economies of scale and costs to do that are killers in first world countries, not to mentin the constraints placed by the size of the roasting equipment in use by any particular roasting business. Add in to the equation that freshly roasted coffee needs time to "rest" and develop before it reaches any semblance of consistency or uniformity without which, it creates nothing but trouble for baristas that cant handle the large change in density (ie INconsitence) in say the first week from roasting, and cant cope with the requirement for frequent running changes in the grind setting as the coffee changes. Couple to that, that "just roasted" coffee which is by definitition per above UNdeveloped, has little character and is generally woody, astringent and foamy if used in an espresso machine. Ergo, it really does need the time to rest and develop after it has been roasted, and at a minimum for small commercial roasting I would have to say it needs atleast 4 days before being delivered, and this all governs what is the definition of fresh roasted coffee in terms of what can be delivered to a cafe business for their understanding in use, that will produce a proper result in the cup for the paying public. For these reasons, baristas that advise clients that their coffee is delivered the day of roasting are basically talking through their hat for whatever reason....could be thats what they think the clients want to hear, or what they have been told and they believe it, or....what they have been told to say regardless as in it may be a marketing policy of that cafe to push this barrow with clients. Hope that helps

.

Brett H · February 2016

Brilliant... Thank you FC. Spot on as always! Where is our Vietnam Coffee Blog mate?? This guy who posted above is a 'pro'!! And one of the best you'll ever know and read!!

jparnold · February 2016

Thanks Fresh Coffee, Great reply and information. I agree with what you stated about manufacturers. I am going to request a replacement machine even though it is 4 weeks old as the problem occurred straight out of the box and I have been trying to solve it ever since. Even took it back to Harvey Norman demonstrated the problem (under extraction on finest grind) and they contacted Breville by phone while I waited to obtain an AP? number (authority to replace). When Breville found that I was using 'supermarket' beans they would not (issue the AP?) stating that they are no good. I argued that nowhere on the box or in the instruction manual does it state that pressure may be compromised when not using freshly roasted beans. The sales people at Harvey Norman also did no know that your should use freshly roasted coffee beans - they had not been told this. Anyway I decided to take the machine home and get some freshly roasted beans but I can only get reasonable pressure using the finest grind setting which I know can be rectified but - I will advise that I am not prepared to take it to a service centre and have to leave it there and be without the machine for as long as they take as it is basically out of the box and not doing what it is supposed to do. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Brett H · February 2016

Keep us posted mate!

Moon · February 2016

Now that you have used fresh beans and the problem is still there ... you should go back to Harvey Norman and get them to give Breville another call. They now can't use the excuse of using Supermarket beans for not replacing the faulty machine with a new one. It is a dud .. pure and simple. 4 weeks old and problems ... no way. Hey Guys - shouldn't it be Harvey Norman that replaces the faulty machine under their own warranty? As the point of purchase .. isn't it their responsibility to fix the problem? I mean .. why do they need approval from the manufacturer .. they sold the dud. It is then up to HN to deal with Breville ... and if they don't play ball .. then it is up to HN to play hard ball .. and threaten to not stock their products if they are not going to honour the warranty. HN should be looking after their customers first and foremost. I'd go to management and then higher up if I wasn't satisfied .. or write a complaint to Gerry himself about the poor service you are getting as a customer. Gerry won't be happy about that. ps. It wouldn't hurt the cause to slip in the fact that you've been on an Internet Coffee forum seeking advice .. and that we are all eagerly awaiting the outcome >:D

FreshCoffee2 · February 2016

The new machine guarantee is the resposibiioty of the manufacturer (or in the case of a manufacturer who is overseas, the importer). The retailer has no obligation in the matter and if it replaces the machine to its client, could in a worst case scenario, actually end up being the meat in the sandwich if the manufacturer refuses to support it (the retailer)..,meaning it could end up out of pocket for the value of the machine it replaces, ifthe manufacturers says it should not have done that... They have followed the correct course of action and that is, the retailer contacts the manufacturer and leaves it up to the manufacturer to decide what it wants the retailer to do on its behalf. "Department store" retailers do not have their own workshop, so they cant do much other than act as a go between. After that it is down to goodwill. If the retailer feels it should "do something" for the client it can, but that has nothing to do witih the manufacturer's new machine guarantee. A machine that does not work straight out of the box is called a "DOA" ("dead on arrival") and sets in motion a different set of circumstances than would happen when a machine requires service intervention somewhere down the track during the period of guarantee. The definition of DOA however could be a bit rubbery...is it simply dead with no sign of life, or something that operates but not properly.....Something is more likely to be termed a DOA, if the machine never leaves the shop (ie is tested in front of the client at purchase) OR if the machine is brought straight back to the shop. And of course different manufacturers may have different ways of defining a DOA and what to do about it. Because the OP has been persevering with the machine for a period since purchase however, its most probable the manufacturer will instruct the retailer to have the machine sent to a repair agent to be fixed. It is unlikely to swap it for a new one, and this will be covered in the terms and conditions of their new machine guarantee. Remember....the guarantee is there to help the client if any problems occur inside a certain period, and if Breville says something to the effect of "take it to one of my authorised repairers and they will fix it for you on our behalf" then, the guarantee is actually doing what it is supposed to and is helping you as intended. It then simply comes down to an "inconvenience factor" (time to travel to and from repairer, time for repairer to rectify machine), which is an intangible thing up to any number of individual interpretations and opinions, that a guarantee will not cover. Please dont shoot the messenger, I am simply giving you guys an insight into how the "system" works (no...not the thing called "statutory warranty", real world manufacturer guarantees). Also dont forget the repairer is usually NOT Breville but an independent service workshop business and they have the same (lack or) responsibility in the matter as the retailer...in the case of warrantable claims, they take their "orders" from the entity carrying the guarantee and if they step outside of what they are advised to do in terms of the warrantable repair, will end up not getting paid for the work outside of what was approved. Life can be interesting in an authorised repair workshop, when clients decide to argue a point with the repairer....problem is the "argument" is not with the repairer but with the entity that guarantees the machine. The workshop is just the "fixer"

In the end, a client has to do what he thinks is best for himself, after weighing up all the circusmtances involved. Hope all that helps.

Moon · February 2016

I certainly don't profess to be an authority on the legal aspects of consumer law .. and am only going by what I have read on the Whirlpool forum when cases like this have been discussed. There is no shortage of people on that forum who are aware of a retailers obligations when it comes to a consumers rights when they have purchased an item that is 'faulty' Some will post that it is the manufacturers responsibility .. whereas others will step in and say .. no, it is the retailers .. and they are only attempting to evade their legal responsibility to their customer by hand-balling the problem back to the manufacturer .. and washing their own hands. It would appear that having referred the problem, which was obviously a flaw out of the box .. and being only 4 weeks old .. along with the excuse by Breville to put the cause down to having used 'Supermarket' beans .. is clearly a copout on their part. Is anyone really buying this 'excuse' to weasel out of taking responsibility? People who buy budget Breville Coffee machines .. are usually the ones who get their grounded or whole beans from a Supermarket. It's a bit rich for them to then claim that is why their grinder/machine is not functioning properly. Here we have a dud machine .. where the purchaser is expected to make his own repairs/modification and cop the cost for it. That doesn't sound right to me.. and it is no secret that many retailers and manufacturers will try to put one over customers to save a few measly dollars .. and hope that customers will accept their 'dud' and simply go away to sort it out themselves. As if they didn't know there would be 'quality' issues by having their products made in China on the cheap. I'm somewhat inspired .. and will head back to my usual forum to seek out some of these threads to educate myself a little further on the subject. Having said that .. there is a general acceptance on that forum .. that people shouldn't take opinions/advice from members and take it as the Gospel - you should seek professional advice. I just get a little prickly under the collar when I .. or hear of others purchasing a product that is not fit for purpose .. especially when retailer and manufacturer don't want to know about it. What could be more disappointing than buying a brand new Coffee machine/grinder and the bloody thing doesn't work properly. :tearhair:

FreshCoffee2 · February 2016

Hi mate, note the similarity between what you have written, and what I originally wrote above in my more lengthy post. I am not disagreeing with you

, just giving you some insights from my own personal sphere of real world expertise. In the end this type of thing can be argued until the cows come home, with the very possible net result that the client is the one who is inconvenienced big time if he tries to argue to the nth degree for what anyone thinks are his "rights". That is sure to prolong a mutually agreeable outcome....it always does. And that is why I ended my last post with words to the effect of, that he needs to think about it all and do what he thinks is going to be best for him.

Moon · February 2016

Cheers FC ;D I guess I just feel for the OP .. and having made the leap to buy his own coffee machine ... I'd like to see the beginning of his life-long coffee journey as a pleasant and exciting one .. not that it won't have it's own challenges along the way that will test him at times. A dud out of the box is not the way to kick of the journey .. and ok .. these things can happen .. only they should be rectified immediately with the co-operation of those he purchased the equipment from. ps. I didn't continue to read all of the content in above posts that were talking about shims .. as it annoyed me that it was up to the purchaser of a new machine to fix the flaws. To me .. it was clearly a case of taking it back for an exchange (preferrable) or fast repair. I did read your post that said it should be repaired in a day or two with a max of 1 week.

jparnold · February 2016

Latest update. Using freshly ground beans ground with the machine (last night) I was able to get quite a high pressure (almost in the overextracted area on the dial) and more importantly - The coffee didn't start coming out until 4 or 5 seconds after starting (the pre infusion) The extraction (shot?) took around 25 seconds to come out The colour was richer More body Good crema Good taste. HOWEVER this was with the grind setting at it's finest (1) so that doesn't give much latitude. I guess shims will change that. I got a reply from Breville who stated that their warranty is only for repair (aren't they all?). I guess even though the problem existed from when the machine came out of the box I didn't notify anyone for over 3 weeks as I wasn't sure that it was caused by me not knowing how to 'drive' the machine correctly. So as far as Breville is concerned it could be all 'hearsay'. As my nearest Breville service centre is an hour's drive away and they may take quite some time to rectify (fit shims) I really don't want to take it there. I am thinking that maybe I will install one of the smallest shims and check if any difference. If in the future the machine ever has to go in for repairs under warranty I can remove them shim - how would they even know one had been installed? The instructions are very straight forward and not unlike removing the upper and lower burr for cleanly which is also in the instruction manual which came with the machine.

Brett H · February 2016

Great stuff mate. Keep us posted; and, if you'd be so kind as to take some pictures we'd be most appreciative. You aren't the first to need shims and you won't be the last.

Moon · March 2016

Ok ... after having a cup of coffee .. a Bex .. and a lay down .. feel a lot better thanks ... I figured I better go have a quick squiz at what a 'shim' actually is to find out what is involved in doing that. Hmm? Doesn't appear to be a major operation after all ... a bit of an inconvenience .. only probably better than the OP having to travel an hour to and from the repairer and back twice and being without a coffee machine for however long it takes. I guess looking on the bright side .. on setting '1' the OP can make a good coffee in the meantime .. (the most important part in all of this) and as the pour time seems about right .. will only be a problem if the beans require a finer grind ... a case of - 'do I feel lucky?' 8)

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