New To Roasting

o

I have been making coffee as a professional barista for 12 years now, and though I can confidently say that (only in the past 3 years) I have reached a certain pinical in my skill set. I know I still have a lot to learn about the cup. But......
I am seriously bored....seriously!!!
Good news: I am being sponsered to undertake an intensive roasting course, under the tutelage of "Peter Wolf"
What I am seeking, is some good advice, or offers of or about work. I am intensly enthusiastic about making a full career in this industry, and I know that if someone trusts me, that I am more than dedicated. And a completetly reliable worker.
Coffee is my life (careerwise). I hope there is a guiding hand for me, like the guiding hand I have offered my many Barista trainees that have sought my support and knowledge.

Koffee_Kosmo

You will like Peter Wolff he has a great outlook on life His laugh is infectious. Tell him I said hello He roasts special and secret blends for one of my relatives that is a cafe supplier KK

o

Thanks guys. My hair is pretty crazy. And over the phone I'm already affected by Peter's infectious nature. Thanks for bolstering my already substantial confidence in the training I have been offered. I want to truely succeed in this idustry. It's funny, When you find yourself in Kafka's nightmare. Often comfort is found in a strangers kind words.

o

But again to the question above.....Please some help! I hope to be employed as a roaster full time. And though somewhat as a step to the next bit. I'm sure as you can see, 12 years barista, I like to learn my craft before moving on. Perfectionist you might say. Advice?

shape_shifter

Step 1 - get a popper Step 2 - buy green beans Step 3 - roast away and watch Although an unmodded popper only gives you a very quick roast it still allows you to watch and learn, to see what happens at different temperatures and in different surroundings (try inside and outside). You can still get the puffs of haze, the chaff leaving the beans at certain times, the smells. Step 4 - try different ways of storing the beans over different periods and see and taste what is produced.

o

Thanks. But I'm looking for industry advice. Not domestic. I'm sure Peter will direct me in some aspects, but I'm keen to see if there is a place in for me. Surely passion will help me find my place

Brett H

I like SS's idea of getting a popper so that you can observe all of the changes to the bean at every stage of the roast.  As a starting point you can have no closer contact with a bean then roasing it in a popper and chewing it up immediately upon cooling to taste your flavour efforts.  As a self confessed perfectionist, you will then surely formulate better ideal conditions for your beans to roast under from such close observation. This will give you an up close and personal experience of the roasting process to then take forward.  This will also allow you to walk the walk of your future customers.

mycuppa

on 1313499514:

Just don't let Peters hair style put you off  :D

Or his choice of hats.

on 1313502614:

Step 1 - get a popper Step 2 - buy green beans Step 3 - roast away and watch Step 4 - try different ways of storing the beans over different periods and see and taste what is produced.

Step 5 - Reality Check - be prepared to experience some pain, it's seriously back-breaking hard work ! Hot, dirty, smelly, smokey, VERY VERY noisy and you may lift a bean 9 times before it leaves your roastery (10 times if you deliver as well), it adds up and wears you down. Oh and yes be prepared to potentially give up your social life as you may have to work long and strange hours. It's not all the glamor and romance of sitting back watching a bean go from green to brown.

o

I'm aware it's not glamour and red carpet dreams. I actually am keen not to be serving customers. Hours are fine. I have a great life. So hidden away in a factory roasting sounds great to me for 5 years or so. Maybe more

shape_shifter

Hang on, you know nothing about roasting but you aren't willing to start at the very basic stages! *shakes head* and moves on...

o

I see no need for hostility. This topic is hardly one for heated debate. I mearly stated that I was looking for a more industry focussed piece of advice. If you read my initial post, I stated that I am being sposored to train under "Peter Wolf". So I'm Kind of confused that you would have an issue with me not necessarily being too focussed on using a domestic roasting machine, even though I may actually consider that advice as valuable. If it offends you that you may not be the most interesting person in this conversation....I'm sorry. But really??? Plus this kind of unnecessary aggression was addressed some time ago in a very specific thread. Aside that....Thank you "mycuppa", for your frank statement about the toughness of the job. This is the kind of thing I'm asking about. I have spend a little time around roasting machinery, and have seen the vast shelves of enormous bags of beans. So your post did make me think about the stress on the body. The other question I'm asking is. How do I go about finding roasting work?

o

And thank you Brett H, for advising me to reconsider the advice of SS. I have.

o

Customers, did refer to cafe customers. A dilemma when electronically expressing a feeling. Just to be clear. I have been in the hospitality industry for almost 20 years. So I am far from ingnorant to the many layers and intricacies of this industry. In reference to my place in the industry. My memory of learning to make coffee was starting at the bottom. I'd love to start at the middle, or even at the top end of boutique brilliance. But of any of you that are full time roasters reading this, where did you start, as a clone maybe? Also, trust is only gained over time, and I'm fairly intelligent. So to think I haven't contemplated that is??? I think you may be over emphasising a small part of what I have said, unless I'm totally misreading the tone of your post AM. If you are just being cold in the sense of the truth of the industry. Thank you. But let us not assume I'm 20 yo with no knowledge of the world I'm just trying to get some advice about roasting. And how to find work in the industry.

o

I may be totally misreading some people that are posting on my topic. But I am genuinely here to learn and network. I want to utilize this forum to go further in the industry. So I genuinely want solid, honest advice. I can handle stark truths. But as we are all strangers here. I would enjoy a civil discourse with people. Not jabs at my knowledge or lack of. Thank you

UNM

Misunderstanding the intended meaning is quite common on forums. Obviously neither original poster nor reader can have any idea what is going on in each others mind, we can only work from what is on the screen. I'm not seeing anyone taking jabs, but can see how you might think so. Also, your posts don't come across as making me WANT to help you. So, to work from your original post forwards and offer what little help I can, in a hopefully constructive manner, here are some thoughts. It is unlikely you will get any offers of work from people here at the moment. Nobody knows you, or your skills - contribute to the forum wherever you feel you can, that will help develop relationships with the other members and who knows what may happen in the future. You don't seem to have much roasting experience, but want to make a career in roasting. I suggest you get yourself a popper and/or heat gun with metal bowl, a small selection of wildly different greens and roast a few batches. Preferably before you start your roasting course. If you are keen to learn, this will teach you a lot even without any outside help. Commercial roasting at its core is taking green coffee beans and cooking them, same as you can do at home. There are many additional complexities in the business side, but domestic and commercial roasting share the same base. Work from here and walk before trying to run. Also, read this forum (and others) for roasting tips and tricks - how different roast methods/profiles affect the final result etc. Share your experiences and ask for help as you go - you will learn and by sharing with us, we will get to know you.  Try not to  take posts personally or respond in that tone - assume others are responding to the content and may have misunderstood you. They probably do not have an issue with you, just with what they took from your post.

Intense Coffee

The art and science of taking countless green bean variations and vintages from numerous countries, processed in various ways, then discovering and understanding the roasting profile that delivers the best outcome for blending (or not blending), in order to satisfy your own tastes as well as the tastes of others, depending on the targeted coffee percolation method  -  is similar whatever roaster type you use. It's getting to that understanding and passion for the coffee itself that I believe is important grounding to producing great coffee. It is also that passion that people on this forum have, and assumed you had, so their advice was well meaning. In order to gain experience and exposure to the vast variety of options, it is probably more convenient, cost effective and practical via a small batch roaster. Large roasteries use sample roasters to develop their profiles. Hence the suggestions that a good (cheap) starting point is a popper. If you wish to use less "amateurish" equipment, I believe the Baby Roaster is an excellent and reasonably inexpensive outlay, and if money is less of an object then something like a HottopB, which provides manual control, and I believe used by some major roasteries as sample roasters could be an option. Professional gas heated style sample roasters are not cheap, and would require suitable environments to operate in. Gaining and demonstrating this passion and understanding would surely be a good addition to your resume if a roasting job is a goal. The method of transposing your developed profiles to large batches is more about the mechanics and understanding the roaster being used. Often controlled as AM mentioned via computer programs, so the more humdrum and physical aspects to roasting, accompanied by all the heavy lifting mentioned previously. As large batch roasting is all about understanding a customer, I'm not so sure you are going to be able to avoid that interaction utlimately.

beanflying

You might also want to confirm you are in Melbourne which I gather from some posts in other threads is the case? In the last few weeks alone in Melbourne Sensory Lab has taken on a part time roaster assistant and Veneziano were looking for a roaster so the jobs are out there. Like getting the first Barista job your first job as a roaster is hard one and floor sweeper and delivery driver roles are likely. Just my $0.02 but you might find a way into roasting with a shift to a cafe that is roasting there own an easier and more satisfying transition for you. While not a full time roasting job in most cases smaller batches and variation then using the results of your roasting would keep the interest up. In the meantime as a few of the others have mentioned if you haven't done it before grab some green and turn them brown. May not help a lot in getting the first job but it sure wouldn't hurt (besides it's fun)  . Wooden Spoon, Stainless bowl and a heatgun would get you started.

o

I'm investing in an "IRoast2". just for home practice, and familliarization. I appreciate the helpful input from people on this topic. Please keep it coming. Just as a so you know. I'm not asking anyone for a job here (Unless someone wants to offer  ). More I'm asking about ways of getting work as a roaster. As unlike many other jobs, this is rather a niche one. Also about the reality of the work involved. I know I can be a little reactive at times, but electronic discourse is a very cold and etherial context (particularly for me). So I thank you all for input. Please keep it a coming. Also I think its a great place to speak about your feelings about the work. So like me, others can get a glimpse of the stinky/difficult/rewarding/frustrating/joyus bits that are glamourized in the latte glasses at the many funky cafes. Oh, and yes I do live in melbourne.

Koffee_Kosmo

An I Roast 2 is a popper slightly modified I concur with the popper suggestion If you want a real hands on roaster to observe & learn the full coffee roasting spectrum of all stages get a KKTO KK

beanflying

on 1313809317:

If you want a real hands on roaster to observe & learn the full coffee roasting spectrum of all stages get a KKTO KK

Now there's an unbiased opinion  Problem with the I Roast is the lack of control you have over the thing and the noise makes it hard to hear the roast. If your heading down the path of wanting to tweak and play with the roast then a KKTO, Modded Breadmaker or if you have the $$ a Hottop will give you a lot more control over the roast.

mycuppa

Roasting is like any discipline. Practice makes perfect. Think of roasting like training for any sport - you need to put in the hours to fully develop the skills and more importantly understand the dynamics that are constantly at play. For roasting, there is no such thing as a natural talent like in physical sports, however, you need a very analytical mind. I learn something every day and it's not necessarily from using the roaster - more often than not it is tasting something I've just extracted from an espresso machine or speaking with my customers and reflecting upon what went into creating those beans, or it's the fact I'm facing an upcoming bean substitution and need to develop a transition plan - this occurs far more frequently than people could imagine. It's rare to have a 3-month stint where things are stable. As BF mentioned, getting time on a roaster is important and one way is to approach people who have roasters. I can't speak for other roasters, but I know that for myself I personally struggle with the concept of letting anyone else use my gear, despite the fact I've spent 100's of hours and lots of money developing sophisticated computer systems managing roasting to achieve as close to 100% consistency - it is very difficult to remove the human operator variable. It's not the cost of a batch of beans that could get ruined - it's the cost of customers that may not be happy. This is what sits in the back of my mind 24x7 and never, ever disappears - it's like a grey cloud following you around all day, every day. In a competitive market, acquiring customers is extremely expensive. Capacity/supply far outstrips demand in the coffee industry. Even if you have a pretty good product at a great price, that does not mean you can sell it. For this reason, an absolute focus on the customer is the only way forward for roasters unless of course if you have a few $M spare in working capital that can be used to build and create "lock-in" of a customer base. It will take you at least 2 years full time to properly understand roasting - including bean selection, blending, maintenance, etc. That's assuming you have the ability to be analytical and learn from your mistakes. It will take you at least 5 years to build a sustainable business - perhaps more in the current climate. It will take you at least $500- 600K in capital to get to this point (inclusive of all the green you will roast in your journey of learning) - maybe more $$. The cost of a roaster is less than 10% of the required sum needed to build a viable business. Never, ever, build your business plan around the basic cost elements of Roaster purchase, green bean pricing and the fact you think you can do it better, faster and cheaper than everyone else. Like all businesses, there are many risks at every stage, and ongoing risks that need to be managed.

Koffee_Kosmo

on 1313811982:

Now there's an unbiased opinion   Problem with the I Roast is the lack of control you have over the thing and the noise makes it hard to hear the roast. If your heading down the path of wanting to tweak and play with the roast then a KKTO, Modded Breadmaker or if you have the $$ a Hottop will give you a lot more control over the roast.

I am not ashamed. And speaking form a user experience of over 800 roasts using both versions of the KKTO then I truly think a KKTO will be of assistance and he can use the free designs to build one as many others have Mycuppa wrote

It will take you at least 2 years full time to properly understand roasting - including bean selection, blending, maintenance, etc. That's assuming you have the ability to be analytical and learn from your mistakes. It will take you at least 5 years to build a sustainable business - perhaps more in the current climate.

My apprenticeship was 4 years and I see many similarities in any profession Time to learn a trade takes time not just a course KK

o

Hottop it is. $1500 isn't a fuss. And looking at it. It seems intelligent to use a commercialesque machine. Thankyou guys for the last recent posts. Very satisfying to read what you've said. I assure you that I know that a course really doesn't cut it. But I can't find another more qualified intensive of it's kind. Plus it's being paid for. I'd be insane to pass it up. I value any comments on how I should approach my fledgling foray from green potential brilliance, into (hopefully) brown captured joy. I did mean roasting coffee . And please I open this as a space to vent about the industry too. Anything to help me fully grasp the industry on a level that isn't just the rockstar barista (yawn), that has sadly lost it's allure.

Koffee_Kosmo

Over the course of a few years while designing and building my roasters I learnt so much Things like agitation speeds and good mixing of beans were extremely important, I cant count the amount of times I visibly checked the roasting process by lifting the TO and just observed the depth of colour stages to relative time of roast And you know what all those little things in combination are crucial to a good roast However I am still learning I just haven't stopped As a designer I have many many design variations of the same successful design As a roaster I get pleasure by varying the roast, blending, and tasting and cupping the results If there is any part of my roasting that lacks and requires a little more time spent on it is my taste pallet for better cupping and tasting to more accurately pick up the nuances that I know I miss from time to time KK

Brett H

on 1313816143:

I am not ashamed. And speaking form a user experience of over 800 roasts using both versions of the KKTO then I truly think a KKTO will be of assistance and he can use the free designs to build one as many others have Mycuppa wrote My apprenticeship was 4 years and I see many similarities in any profession Time to learn a trade takes time not just a course KK

Right at this moment I am putting together a KKTO roaster because I have retired the BBQ behemoth and have the bits lying around (seconded from kitchen o bak shed shhhhhh......).  Those free designs and KK's willingness to get constant feedback and tweak his product; plus, the demo and the quality of the roast that I saw at the Bezzera sold me. I'm keeping the Behmor and the poppers but this looks like it could take me to the next level roasting profile-wise. I would recommend anyone who is interested in roast batches of 400g plus at least check out the KKTO. If I didn't already have the essential bits (don't tell the wife) the kit from the website is a bargin price and there are lots of testimonials as to it's effectiveness.  The HT has always looked awesome to me but I want a larger batch size and can't justify the extra $$$. As a professional conductor and singer and teacher, the day I stop learning is the day I die... figeratively or literally. I don't see any profession were the most competent practitioners would feel any differently.  Devil's advocate: If o, you are 'over it' in the front of house what happens if you can't make the back of house work for you? Have you considered a complete change of industry? Your posts are very revealing and show you to be intelligent, accomplished, energetic and passionate. Why are you prepared to start at the bottom again in such a similar vacation and career path?  I personally am terrified of change and admire those who are much freer spirits than myself. Good luck with it o!

o

I admit there is a level of intimidation about moving away from the comfortable setting of a good job were I'm kind of worshiped by the regular roundabout of coffee deficient customers. Desperately shuffling in to introvieniously hook up to the group handle. And assuring me I make the best coffee in Melbourne (not that I personally believe that mind you, but its nice to hear it). But I love to be challenged. I have spent a long time in artistic vocations. Full time musician,full time dancer, and full time coffee maker. I still do music occasionally, but I get out my dance training when doing insane rushes in the morning. All of this is saying that I always need to move on when I know the time is right. I dreamt about coffee nearly all night last night. I haven't had a joyus coffee dream for probably 5 years. So I know I'm doing the right thing. Looking at insatalling the Hottop in a month or 2. All the solid advice I hace heared here has help me see that I have to be a little more patient in certain aspecsts. And I think I'll hold off on the course for 6 months. An do lots of practice on my own. If there is any owner roaster that would be happy for me to hang out in the factory with them for a day. I'd seriously appreciate that

Koffee_Kosmo

on 1313881346:

Looking at insatalling the Hottop in a month or 2. All the solid advice I hace heared here has help me see that I have to be a little more patient in certain aspecsts. And I think I'll hold off on the course for 6 months. An do lots of practice on my own. If there is any owner roaster that would be happy for me to hang out in the factory with them for a day. I'd seriously appreciate that

If you are ever in Brisbane I would be happy to spend some time roasting and talking coffee KK

Brett H

I think it sounds as though you are looking in the right direction, and posting here and taking the advice of master roasters and coffee specialists like Jeff and IC augers well. Good luck and stay in touch. Many of us have whimsically dreamed of undertaking the journey you are about to embark upon.  Fortunately for our marriages and mortgages we confine our passions to a back shed or deck with scavenged parts.... Do we???  Keep this thread alive, it is already more interesting than one book I had to stop reading recently about a prominent coffee business man's success story... 

shape_shifter

on 1313890828:

.  Fortunately for our marriages and mortgages we confine our passions to a back shed or deck with scavenged parts.... Do we??? 

Do we Brett???  ;D ;D ;D I know I don't hehehe My OH said the other day that he was told that he is very lucky to have me as he can do whatever he wants (well besides using a router in the lounge room, yes it did happen once when he was making speakers, never again LMAO) in the house, his workroom is actually the real lounge.  So when it comes to my roasting, it is nothing compared to what he does  ;D Anyway back to the topic...

o

I very well may do that KK. I would love to go for a trip north, as I am from around there. Also my friend "Danny Young", whom owns "Espresso Botero", formerly "Coffeeart". Is based up that way too. It could be a coffee excursion.

beanflying

With the Hottop purchase potentially being a few months away also have look at the Quest M3. Not as nicely finished appliance wise as the Hottop B but a great level of control. Similar pricing but you would need to import your own. If you want to have a look at a Hottop in the flesh I think DiBella in Nth Melbourne may have had one on the shelf last time I spoke to Greg Pullman. I have one of the older D models I have hacked for more control BTW. If you want a roasting course closer to home have a chat to Ross Quail at Sensory Lab he may be able to arrange something for you.