Your cafe set up- Machines\Grinders

Gonzo

"I, too have read MOST of the forums on this web site over the course of many months", and disagree with your opinion that there is a lot of "silly side-tracking and going round in circles". Is your opinion any more valid than someone elses? Some of the players taking part in the Forum at the moment are technically very well heeled with loads of experience. 12 months ago the Forum was full of people with no technical expertise or experience who seemed intent only on regurgitating hearsay and bagging their supply and service providers amongst themselves. Certainly, it would make for a more well balanced Forum if there were more people from both ends of the coffee industries participating at the moment. If you are saying that respondents should should stick to the point more, I disagree with you. Monosyllabic answers would make for a very boring Forum and more important, there wouldn't be any of the peripheral discussion that helps expand the topic of discussion for better understanding. Monosyllabic answers do not benefit the person who posted the original topic. So if "Time is precious people!  Lets better utilise it and stick with the topics," then I will have to repeat what's already been very well covered in this topic and that is that the problem with naming brands of equipment that respondents are happy with, is that what's good for one party is not necessarily good for another for a multitude of reasons. There are too many variables, and we are all individuals working in different environments. It's already been covered, honest. Many people are happy with, or not happy with Astroria, Bezzera, Bo-Ema, Brasilia, Diadema, Elektra, Faema, Futurmat; La Cimbali, La Marzocco, La Pavoni, La San Marco, Rancilio, San Marino, San Remo, Vibiemme, Wega, etc etc etc. Yes some of these machines are badge engineered versions of eachother, and some actually dont make very good coffee and cant be adjusted, and others lend themselves to adjustment and can be "tuned" by expert service providers. Their brand names have nothing to do with this, and some lesser known machines do a better job than some more well known ones. The client is in the hands of his service provider and a good service provider is imperative and an important part of what constitutes "good equipment". We are all individuals and have different expectations and requirements and get different levels of support from our suppliers IN DIFFERENT MARKETS. A good brand in one market may well be a dog in another. When it comes to grinders, as has already been extensively covered you get what you are given, except if you are "MAN ENOUGH" in this market, to buy your own. In additon to this, I dont think it will be too offensive to note that a great majority of staff being allowed to operate the equipment dont know the slightest thing about it and have never had any training therefore their opinions will only serve to mislead he who in good faith asked the original question. However in order to try and stick to the point for you: Cunil; Faema; Gino Rossi, Mazzer; and several other badge engineered makes, all do the job to various degrees of satisfaction dependent on the individual circumstances of use, and your own individual opinion. If 21 Grams still thinks that some participants in the discussion are "arrogant and self righteous" simply because they have their own apparently (to me) very well informed opinions, perhaps he or she can advise how anyone could possibly get the point across without this kind of  discussion? This topic is interesting and obviously "hot" because it is simply bigger than monosyllabic answers can provide. G.

21_Grams

Yes, that is a very big list of every brand available.  Well done... Now, the list is there, and I must say...anyone who lists Gino Rossi as a potential for best grinder for a shop - any shop, is completely out of the loop!  Yes, this grinder does create ground coffee from whole beans.  So, yes it does do a job, but the best job?  No.  I have worked with this pea-shooter for several months, and I have worked with many others, and dcbc, if you want to open a business, do not select this cheap and tawdry hack grinder as your machine of choice.  If you want to save money, go for it!  If you want good coffee, and to be prepared for growth, then go for anything at all else. This forum continues to spin around bagging the best machines because they have reputations in the market and all the best espresso bars in the city use them.  My advice to you is to visit the top ten cafes in the city - according to the Good Food Guide, and take note of who uses what machines.  I assure you, you will not see many Gino Rossi grinders out there. Enjoy!  And don't just settle for driving sedans. Life is too short.

Gonzo

Thanks for coming back and perhaps you will permit me to expand for the benefit of Dcbc as my background is in the provision of service.   The "common" Gino Rossi grinder is one of the most reliable and well built grinders on the market and gives tens of years of good service...in the right circumstances. Like all pieces of equipment it has limitations and in my honest opinion is better suited to the "smaller" output cafes. This is due to a couple of factors: a) It does tend to overheat and then cut out for about 20 minutes (until it cools down and restarts) if asked to deliver more coffee than it is designed to do. This of course happens when you are at your busiest and is frankly a bit of a no no. b) It's a "screamer" no matter whether you have new plates fitted or not, just louder as the plates wear. This however does not make it any less a contender in the "good" equipment stakes, as stated above it is actually a very well built and reliable grinder, it simply is not suitable for high output cafes, and you wouldn't put it there unless you are mad. Most cafes however are not high output and this is where it is not really fair to bag the old GR grinder in favour of other models that are built for high capacity delivery. As stated the fact of whether a GR is suitable or not has to do with what it will be expected to deliver and you cant necessarily put a kilo figure on that...someone doing 10 kilos per week in a cafe where the demand for coffee is well spread out will have no problem with the GR, and conversely someone doing say 6 kg a week with very high output during only a few hours of peak time in a 5 day week probably will have a problem with it. It depends entirely on the business profile, and not all cafes are in the metrpolitan area of a large city where ouput might be expectd to be high. So "good" equipment also depends on the demands that will be placed on it. You might also reflect on the history of the industy. The current coffee market is growing at an accelerating rate. There are lots of GR grinders out there that have been at it for years. They were the "leading" grinder of yesteryear when the demands of the market were less due to less people drinking espresso. This does not mean they are not a good grinder in todays market and as already stated are quite suitable (in my honest opinion) for many cafes of a certain size. We have not been told where Dcbc is looking to go into business, and the GR may well be very suitable for the kind of cafe he has in mind, and this again is why the topic is bigger than simple one line recommendations of brand name equipment. I would also like to note that due to the lack of understanding of the equipment and inability or refusal of many cafes to take proper care of the equipment loaned to them in good faith, and due to the age of many GR grinders in the market, it is extremely common to find grinders that have a build up of years of oily smelly rubbery crud in them, and are operating on extremely blunt plates overheating and screaming their heads off. This is not the fault of the grinder. You are making me feel bad for digressing yet again but I feel it is necessary if the topic is going to get quality discussion. G. PS   1) overheating and screaming occur in all other brands as well if you ask them (the grinders) to do more than they are intended to do. The only way around this is to specify the correct capacity grinder for your situation, and or specify a purpose "quiet" grinder; 2) I have nothing to do with the importation or sale of Gino Rossi grinders.

21_Grams

Grinders that cut out and scream are simply not good grinders. Anyone producing quality coffee will end up having busier and busier periods and will go through more than 6 to 10Kg per week.  It goes with the territory- quality coffee sales go up, and people should have grinders that can meet the demand.  If Gino Rossi grinders cannot work in busy cafes, then do not buy one if you are intending to serve quality espresso.  I have had Mazzer grinders in my store for three and a half years and have never had one overheat or scream.  Before that I did have a new GR which did overheat and scream. Then the decision is made...Mazzer grinders are better than Gino Rossi.  But most of the world is already aware of that fact.

Gonzo

Have you not understood a word that has been written? I never wrote that GR is better than Mazzer but as this seems to be some kind of Mazzer fetish thing and you need to get the last word in, go for it! Personally I prefer brunettes and motorcycles. G.

21_Grams

My point is...please offer some help as to what machines are better than others.  With all your experience, you must be able to say some are better than others. I believe all espresso makers should be prepared to be busy.  If they are making quality espresso, they will be soon.  Small output cafes should never bank on remaining 6 to 10kg per week cafes.  Get the good equipment, make the good espresso, and the people will come! Gino Rossis do not make the greatest espresso, and do not help businesses to grow.   Never be prepared for being small and staying small.  Do not match the machines with the small output cafes.  Match the machines with your goals of fine espresso making and growth.  People making fine espresso will grow -as they deserve!

john

21 Grams Sorry but I am not sure if I would be taking much notice of the suposed top 10 cafes in the city by reading the GFG. Their reliability is questionable. Cafes and restaurants change their staff and hence their consistancy day in and day out. Can you let us know where your cafe is so we can come and enjoy an espresso or two. I do not know who Gonzo is, but I do feel that he has made some valid points. I have been to some of the recommended "suposed great cafes" rated by persons in this forum and have been greatly disapointed at the quality of the espresso being served. Remember great equipment does not make for a great coffee experience. John

21_Grams

John, Appreciate the feedback. I cannot name my cafe as I enjoy the anonymity offered by this forum and I want to avoid direct discussion concerning who I am and how my business works.  It is stressful enough.   My business is a very busy one in Sydney with a great reputation for true, professional Northern Italian espresso.  We have no link to any brands and roast our own beans- which are of the highest quality.   One of the happiest days of my carreer was when I discovered how an excellent machine can make our lives easier by delivering consistent shots and silky milk texture.  That is why I so strongly disagree with using machines of lower quality.  Baristas have enough to worry about- machines overheating or delivering inconsistent temperatures should not fog their minds while they are concentrating on making every coffee a special one.(i.e. grinding and dosing the proper amount, temperature surfing, maintaining the proper grind, cutting the shot  after the true extraction etc. etc.) Happy Baristas with the best equipment make great espresso and enjoy staying around. Cheers. Cheers,  

john

21 Grams Maybe you can send me a private email as to your location.  My lips will be sealed. Otherwise I will continue to enjoy espresso a la chez moi. If I had a great cafe serving great espresso, I would welcome the opportunity to bragg about it. John

FreshCoffee2

OK here's a little extra from me. I currently have a Mazzer Super Jolly grinder sitting next to a 2 group electronic/volumetric DIADEMA espresso machine in my tasting room. The Super Jolly is screaming, however in the "veritable sea of screamers" it is a quality grinder with excellent standard of build. However I don