Fine food and crap coffee - a perfect match ?

mycuppa

Much has been said about high-end restaurants serving below average coffee.

Scottie C. nailed it well a few months ago in his article appearing in a coffee industry glossy. He did point out though that change, albeit slow, is occurring amongst the foodie havens, but this was limited to competitive pockets around some major CBD's.

This blinded approach by quality restaurant owners astounds me like nothing else in this industry.

Last night, under pressure from The Little One to revive an alleged lack of romance and prove that I do indeed love her just as much as my roasters and beans, we took off to dine in a super place that was a 150km round trip from our home - some of the journey being mountains and windy roads.

Upon arrival at said wonderful place it was indeed a picture of beauty - perched on the edge of a forest, nice tables, superb linen and a great open fire.

The menu was a masterchef inspired dream - local and exotic quality ingredients sourced from the best of the best. Chilli rabbit was one such example - you get the idea.

After ordering some very nice wine, we sat back, listened and watched with slight but concealed amusement about how the Angus beef was grain fed for 6 months a year and then left in it's own paddock to feed (poor thing was probably very lonely).

Oh, and how the mushrooms were hand picked (geez I'd hate to see a machine do it) from the side of a steep mountain nearby, etc.

Explaining the menu was a real production, just like hamlet..............was there a tragedy looming ?

During our entree and mains, I could hear the whine and groan of a grinder and the screeching of the steam wand in cold milk jugs. Yes, they had espresso. I could not see it because I had my back to that area and I did try looking around a few times. Despite sitting a good 6 metres away from the machine and they only machine a half-dozen coffees in the 3hrs we were there, I could distinctly smell the ground coffee in the air.

OK, let's fast forward to ordering deserts - yes they were yummy.

The waiter asked "would you like coffee or tea ?"

I could not help myself..........I had to ask "what coffee is it"

Waiter has puzzled look on face, pulls out small notepad from apron and scans through his menu cheat sheets at a blindingly rapid rate.

Waiter now has serious case of embarrassment and says "sir, it's a really nice coffee"

I start to bite my tongue. The little one has squeezed my hand as a gesture to "DON'T"

I respond with "yes, but what brand of coffee beans are they"

Waiter pauses, looks up (no sign) searches with his eyes around the room for one of the other waiters or the Front of House manager and then politely responds with "I will find out for you".

5 mins later he rushes back to our table, filled with glee and a slightly smug look as delivers the information I was dreading "the coffee beans are XXX" (a.k.a. the not so fresh imported Italian).

I then say "sorry for having to put you through that, but I have to drive 75km in dark, windy roads late at night back to my home and was really looking forward to a coffee that would be fresh roasted. Please don't think I'm a whinger because you have done an excellent job serving us tonight, but I just cannot have one of those coffees for fear of spoiling the wonderful lingering flavours from the meals tonight that persist on my palette".

Now the story ends and I have to travel home. All the way I was shaking my head at blatant stupidity and cursing why, why, why. The Little One was on the receiving end of my rants about restaurants losing the plot with coffee.

Everything in that place was first-class, right down to the smallest details about ingredients and the effort they went through was akin to tackling an assault on Mount Everest and turning back 50m from the summit when it came to coffee time.

True, many restaurants don't do a lot of coffee (they love to push the grog), but that's not and excuse anymore. Fresh premium coffee, even in small quantities is readily available.

The owners and operators of high-end dining places are well enough educated and experienced to know good from bad, fresh from stale, etc. They certainly know better and I'm just gob-smacked at how they have a total lack of care or interest in coffee.

RichardM

This extract from one of my favourite movies springs to mind: I personally try and finish with something like an affogato with dessert at nice restaurants, because it's generally really nice ice cream, so no matter how bad the coffee, it cuts through it - I personally get annoyed though when ordering Tiramisu or similar and finding that the cake is soaked in instant coffee >:( Where I live, we are lucky (in a way). There isn't a big market for pompous restaurants, so the mid range ones ($25-$35 mains) often live off their coffee during the day, so it is generally very good. Places here live and die by reputation, and because of the cafe culture we have, most people will try the coffee first, and then try the food only if the coffee is good. I wish this were the case with the high end restaurants I've been to in Brisbane etc.

beanflying

;D Oops. We have a couple of hatted restaurants in town and they have in the last few months changed to the kwality Vittoria option and now proudly display the 'free' windbreaks plastered with a companies logo other than their own all over them not a good look if your trying to promote upmarket dining IMO. Food is still excellent but I wouldn't touch the coffee. :P Best screaming of the milk at a restaurant was when ACog and family where down on holiday. We were at over 15m away and the milk was being murdered. Just so tempting to have a word to the waitress who was committing the act.

RichardM

I went to a cafe yesterday for breakfast. They've changed from MAP to Campos since being bought out two weeks ago. The owner was training a girl to make the coffees, and kept bringing me free ones whileever I could keep giving feedback and ordering different coffees for training of his new coffee making staff. Chatting with the owner, he was saying that if they got the coffee wrong, they knew they wouldn't survive. This place does sandwiches, breakfasts, and dinners all under $20 per head - so why can't up market places get it right??????

mycuppa

Yes, that brand Australian coffee company has as their strategy to tie up high-end restaurants so that similar coffee that is sold on Supermarket shelves is also packaged into slightly different bags for restaurants. A marketing gig designed to give credibility to the supermarket coffee - perhaps. I think for many restaurants, it's more a case of their Providore/Supplier also bundling the coffee and perhaps a bit of the old "restaurants not having adequate volume to fit into the traditional FOL coffee equipment model". Sometimes it can be that coffee companies may know only too well that high staff turnover in restaurants will cause a training and skills nightmare resulting in potential inconsistency and brand risk - thus giving them a bit of a wide berth in favor of cafes that treat their coffee more seriously as in RM's case.

littleroundman

How is the average restaurant owner and/or worker going to find a "good" coffee ?? How many "average punters" even know such a thing exists ?? It's all too easy from the "inside" of coffee lovers' forums to believe it's "just' a matter of.................... But, thinking about it objectively, just how much time, effort and difficulty would be faced by a restaurant owner with little or no experience in specialty coffee to introduce it to his/her establishment ? ESPECIALLY when God-knows-what percentage of consumers think that what is served in their local McDonalds/Gloria Jeans/cafe IS "good coffee" Without any numbers to back up my theory, I still wouldn't mind betting more than 95% of consumers have ever experienced anything BUT what those on coffee forums would consider undrinkable.

WotB

Why don't great restaurants serve great quality produce (coffee) in a respectful way (pourover)? You don't need a lot of training, and the results in the cup would go leaps and bounds to finish off an impeccable meal.  It really disgusts me as a chef that an item of produce is treated with such a lack of care.  Would you take the freshest fish and massacre it with a serrated steak knife?

mycuppa

on 1314497706:

How is the average restaurant owner and/or worker going to find a "good" coffee ??

The point I'm trying to make here is the over-the-top elaborate efforts by the restaurant in sourcing rare produce, complete with highly descriptive traceability...................................yet with over 400 coffee companies in Australia you would think it's not too hard to find something a little fresher than beans that have traveled on a slow boat from Europe and stored in a warehouse. Quality, fresh roasted coffee is abundantly available in Australia and there are 4 specialty coffee roasteries within 30km of this restaurant which is quite amazing given it's way out of the place.

on 1314497706:

Without any numbers to back up my theory, I still wouldn't mind betting more than 95% of consumers have ever experienced anything BUT what those on coffee forums would consider undrinkable.

I'm not referring to consumers - I'm talking about the people who make these decisions to use a product that does not fit, or seems so ridiculously out of place with everything else the they stand for or what they are trying so desperately hard to achieve. Chefs and high-end restaurant owners definitely know the difference in taste between an average coffee and a great coffee the same way they know the difference between a quality piece of Angus beef versus a supermarket rump on special for $8.99 a kilo. It's their job to know and understand everything they work with - right down to the lowest levels of what olive oil, salt and pepper they use. When developing a new blend I will always give samples to 3 chefs I know to solicit their feedback as I highly value their judgement and experience.

shape_shifter

on 1314498100:

Why don't great restaurants serve great quality produce (coffee) in a respectful way (pourover)? You don't need a lot of training, and the results in the cup would go leaps and bounds to finish off an impeccable meal.  It really disgusts me as a chef that an item of produce is treated with such a lack of care.  Would you take the freshest fish and massacre it with a serrated steak knife?

That's the point though WotB isn't it, majority of people DON'T see coffee as a fresh food. I often put "Coffee is fresh food" as my FB status but I don't think people get it.

mycuppa

on 1314500270:

That's the point though WotB isn't it, majority of people DON'T see coffee as a fresh food. I often put "Coffee is fresh food" as my FB status but I don't think people get it.

It sure is Nic.........I often have people calling me trying to get a rock bottom price on bulk orders of beans for their home - 8, 10 or 12kg at a time. I stay quiet until they are finished talking and then ask a simple question........"how much coffee do you use in a week ?" - most replies are around 250g per week and then follow it up with "why are you buying 6 or 8 months worth of coffee in one purchase" and it's generally to save money. When I tell them coffee is a fresh food and despite packaging it will degrade..........most are very thankful for sharing some insights on how coffee lasts. We keep the same line.........treat your coffee like you treat your fruit and vegetables.

RichardM

on 1314497706:

How is the average restaurant owner and/or worker going to find a "good" coffee ?? How many "average punters" even know such a thing exists ?? It's all too easy from the "inside" of coffee lovers' forums to believe it's "just' a matter of.................... But, thinking about it objectively, just how much time, effort and difficulty would be faced by a restaurant owner with little or no experience in specialty coffee to introduce it to his/her establishment ? ESPECIALLY when God-knows-what percentage of consumers think that what is served in their local McDonalds/Gloria Jeans/cafe IS "good coffee" Without any numbers to back up my theory, I still wouldn't mind betting more than 95% of consumers have ever experienced anything BUT what those on coffee forums would consider undrinkable.

While I agree with most of what you say, the idea of a fine dining restaurant (I assume we are all taking about places where a dinner for two would not be under $200), is to experience the best of everything. Sure, a lot of people think a Sara Lee apple pie is nice, but if you ordered apple pie at one of these places and got that, it would be insulting. The same goes for coffee. I personally think a place that promotes fine dining and fresh food could get away with charging $8/cup of coffee without anyone batting an eyelid, AS LONG AS IT WAS GOOD. Restaurants charge over twice what you can get a bottle of wine for at a bottle shop, because they have selected it, can advise what food it goes with etc (theoretically). Coffee shouldn't be any different. I'm not asking for a coffee degustation with matching food - just agree with Jeff that they should be celebrating and respecting food across the board. After all, you wouldn't drink Passion Pop with your $55 steak. For me, though, coffee snobbery is simply an extension of my food snobbery, and I'd expect those with a passion for food to progress in the same way, or go work in their local RSL serving $10 roast of the day.

Koffee_Kosmo

I personally have tea at restaurants if offered or just plain water The restaurant industry is a high turnover of staff industry some last a couple of hours some 6 months some are just doing it for pocket money while at uni You can read it as not experienced The owners try to dumb the process down to eliminate complete disaster They do this by introducing volumetric machines, this is to accommodate any staff member present or future. The owner is thinking  ??? what can go wrong with pressing a button    Well tell that to MacDonalds  :-\ (see latest TV campaign) You must remember that the head chef and kitchen staff are busy cooking, and the coffee is left to the wait staff for the majority of the time Assuming that they know there stuff with regards to the best and freshest produce Not choosing a fresh bean supplier has me baffled, as it feels like penny pinching KK

mycuppa

on 1314504366:

Not choosing a fresh bean supplier has me baffled, as it feels like penny pinching KK

Exactly - it defies logic. Having dealt with a few restaurant owners, one common theme was their belief that the customer is captive whilst they have their bums on the seat - thinking they will not de-camp and go somewhere else for coffee. Unfortunately it's a bad example - the other case is they have excuses about worrying too much about the food. Obviously, there is a direct relationship between the distance of the restaurant from competitive cafes and the quality of their coffee. I wait for the day when foodie critics (or reviewers) develop their education to the level they can seriously consider the complete dining experience rather than cosmetic fitout or whether they waited 55 mins between entree and main instead of the standard 25-45 mins, or whether the staff "appeared" rushed. It's the only way to get attention - taken to task about coffee quality in a $200 dinner for 2.

UNM

Interesting stuff indeed. From watching the current crop of foodie shows on TV, fine restaurants DO care about the type of salt and pepper used, so I would have expected they would also care to a similar level about the coffee. The wait staff in fine dining establishments are generally of a far higher level than in fast food or casual dining and should be able to handle requests for info about the coffee. I don't normally eat out at fine dining establishments, but we went out for dinner at Flower Drum once and I was most impressed by the front of house staff. Honestly worth the premium for that level of service. I'd be a bit concerned about the quality of the restaurant if they wax lyrical about beef that is grain fed for part of the year and pasture fed the rest. Generally I'd prefer my beasts to be pasture fed, but a mix suggests they can't make up their mind, or are simply using lowest cost option - but that's drifting somewhat off topic.

RichardM

on 1314523352:

Interesting stuff indeed. From watching the current crop of foodie shows on TV, fine restaurants DO care about the type of salt and pepper used, so I would have expected they would also care to a similar level about the coffee. The wait staff in fine dining establishments are generally of a far higher level than in fast food or casual dining and should be able to handle requests for info about the coffee. I don't normally eat out at fine dining establishments, but we went out for dinner at Flower Drum once and I was most impressed by the front of house staff. Honestly worth the premium for that level of service. I'd be a bit concerned about the quality of the restaurant if they wax lyrical about beef that is grain fed for part of the year and pasture fed the rest. Generally I'd prefer my beasts to be pasture fed, but a mix suggests they can't make up their mind, or are simply using lowest cost option - but that's drifting somewhat off topic.

I personally prefer to know how long the meat has aged for, but don't mind a grain/pasture mix (especially in areas where the pasture is of a much lower quality for a portion of the year), so the grain is merely a supplement. I generally eat at fine dining places once or twice a year, and I've had fantastic experiences, and fairly average ones (the most memorably average was a high tea we had at Raffles in Singapore - biggest ripoff ever for terrible service). To be honest though, I haven't had memorable coffee at any of them (look, I brought it back on topic :P )

Brett H

I love this thread because it is such a simple problem to fix (love the idea of a pour over), forget espresso and go plungers, a grinder and some local fresh browns. Why is this so hard to understand?  Darn it, have four fresh SO's on hand as an accompaniment to the wine list and charge $6 for a single plunger. Then, people like us would stay for the coffee and our partners would finally get to eat the dessert trolley!!!  How is it that a restaurant's executive chef will not allow the apprentices to handle the truffles, has a fit of the vapors when the Barra is too large to be sweet yet allows the final taste on the diner's palate to be a stale ashy bitter experience prepared by a haphazardly trained waiter?  SS, you've nailed it: coffee is fresh produce! Why is this such a foreign concept?

RichardM

on 1314531261:

Taking it off topic just for now as all this talk about steak is giving me ideas I have it on good authority that the best steak in Australia is in Melbourne At a place called Rockpool As a surprise I may take my wife there my wife there on our 30th wedding anniversary if it is true KK

Astoundingly the best steak I've ever eaten (other than those prepared at home) was from the Buderim Tavern!

Koffee_Kosmo

on 1314531358:

Astoundingly the best steak I've ever eaten (other than those prepared at home) was from the Buderim Tavern!

Thanks Richard I have started a new thread to search for the best steak It could also be used as a state by state guide KK

Lacehim

I just drink their beer!  Seriously though I agree mycuppa but next time you take the mrs out, put a bag of beans in your pocket and get a sale at the same time.  Half these people don't know, or are happy getting a free machine and grinder I suppose.  Maybe if you made them a coffee with your beans they might realise that there restaurant us missing out.  And there customers too. Im still struggling to convert my mate who keeps buying his coffee from Coles!!!  At least he has planted a coffee tree I suppose.

beanflying

Hot off the Age good food guide awards tonight the result you have all been waiting four. Proudly sponsored by Vittoria (No I am not kidding  ::) ) and the winner of best "Coffee Restaurant of the Year": Attica, Ripponlea. .......... Must be 10-20% coffee and the rest in food???

FreshCoffee2

Just a random comment from the sidelines. I have been in coffee all my life and profess to know nothing about the profession of being a chef.....just because I can boil and egg and cook pasta doesnt mean I advertise that ....."I know food" because frankly, I dont. Funny how people from outside my own profession, profess (very often quite "loudly")to know lots about coffee when in fact.....they dont. Chefs fall into that group just as much as anyone else. They think that because they know lots about food, that it somehow includes coffee. Really? For the rest of it you cant blame suppliers wanting to plug their products and that includes jumping into bed with clients (in this case restaurants) that have a well know name. Its not their problem (the suppliers). With respect if you dont like the coffee OR THE WAY IT IS PRODUCED in a restaurant, it is the restaurant owners  problem. Rgds, Attilio very first Crema site sponsor.

WotB

A lot of the top restaurants are owned by chefs.  As pedantic as we are about produce, how come this doesn't translate to better coffee?  Its basically ignorance.  There is also an element of being time-poor thrown in for good measure.  You've spent so much time preparing your home-grown heirloom vegetables, trying to keep food miles down, and doing such in a sustainable matter, that you really don't have the time to care about another item of produce, one that is seen to be taken care of by front-of-house staff anyway. There are a bunch of chefs that do take their coffee seriously, me included, but like the general public's perception of coffee, it will take considerable time and effort to bring more on board. There really is nothing worse than having a spectacular meal, where everything falls into place, only to be let down by lack of attention to the coffee.  If an establishment is judged on the whiteness of their napkins, the shine on their polished cutlery, the spotlessness of their stemware, how come coffee doesn't rate a mention?

FreshCoffee2

because as a group they are not educated in coffee, and how you get round that is anyone's opinion. and again some more comment from the side lines/......have said it before and will say again.....too often in these sites the "coffee thing" is broken down into too simple a form which does not reflect reality. There is no point bashing large roasters that arent even trying to look like a specialty roaster, when there are enough emerging small roasters that do a worse job of it while spruking about the high quality of the greens they use. That's reality. By "high quality" I mean gourmet types, plantation origins and grades, ethically ticketed brands (any of the fair trade movement brands) etc. etc etc Example: I cup plenty of others offerings. Some emerging roasters seem to have a monopoly on ruining good greens ( in effect this is a little like the charbuck phenomenon where you buy high quality greens and burn them to a black oily mess and tell everyone how good they are/were). Beans roasted in low set up cost roasting equipment by those that have little to no experience in the real profession of coffee roasting are not necessarily charred, but they can be roasted very very badly, inconsistently / unevenly and with a very high proportion of scorching and detachment of tips, resulting in a very disappointing acrid cup.  How is that different from the larger "commodity" roasters buying mediocre greens, roasting them with a certain level of expertise in very good roasting equipment, also resulting in very mediocre cups... Especially when both are in the end subject to the same high occurence, of low quality "remanufacture" in cafes by inexpert brewers / espresso machine operators / brew-istas? Before bashing larger roasters for doing their job well enough therefore, spare a thought for all the emerging roasters that bombard their clients with marketing information about how "passionate" they are or how many barista comps they've done well in or how fantastic their origin greens are, before destroying them in their low set up cost roasters with their actual short term expertise ...... As usual, this has less to do with coffee and more to do with business, image marketing and market manipulation, and client perceptions...in the race for greater market share. Just annunciating a broader perspective, call it Food For Thought if you like! As is usually the case....education is the key so that clients and restaurant owners alike can also use their palates instead of only their eyes and ears and manipulated perceptions, to choose their coffee supplier. A.

FreshCoffee2

yes A, but there is no accounting for individual opinions and the reasons behind individuals doing the things that they do.... Just to throw one example into the mix, in certain quarters the definition of "better" = "cheaper"!  Often enough coffee merchants talk to prospective clients and find the clients are very happy indeed with the encumbent supplier. After some discussion, it becomes abundantly clear that what they are happy with is the pricing structure or level of add ons. They almost faint at higher levels of pricing being offered, or are affronted they may have to god forbid, buy a coffee machine for themselves, and it doesnt seem to register that the product may actually be of a much higher standard.....what's that got to do with anything hehehe! Others may well be looking for something better, but their definition of "better" is to drink someone's label as in they are looking to attach themselves to their perception of someones brand image..... I have conducted blind cuppings with clients over the years, and ask them what coffees they want to cup and or compare with ours. Once you take the label away and ask their palates to do some work, you will (not) be surprised with what happens and "truth in cupping" takes over. They will select the good coffee and reject the not so good stuff. When you pull out the master sheet that shows what the coffees were, there are plenty of red faces going round. People in special interest coffee sites cant expect everyone to feel the same way they do about coffee quality, and people here shouldnt be surprised to learn that many many people are drinking the label or have wildly differing views. Rgdz, A.

RichardM

A wise man once asked me to define "quality". I stared at him for a moment, with no answer. He defined "quality" as how fit for purpose something is, which I thought was simple. He then provided an example. He held up a pool cue, and said "If this was splintered, and not straight, would it be good quality", to which I replied, "Of course not". He then said "Ahh, but what if I told you it was a tomato stake?". Suddenly I got what he was talking about. Quality is completely in the eye of the beholder, and quality is what defines a $100+ per head restaurant. The fitness for purpose is defined by the ability of the customer to see value in what they are getting, and has very little to do with flavour. It has to do with an experience, and an understanding that the chef and owner have researched everything, to make your experience better than if you were to go out and source it all yourself. The way I see it, Vittoria IS in fact good quality....if it is in a situation where you just want a quick cuppa. For most people, at home, the difference wouldn't be noticed, and it would be far better than instant. Note, I'm not saying I would drink it/enjoy it. I'm simply saying it is fit for the purpose that some people want at home, and fits a price. McDonalds would be another example. They sell a lot because the company, not the food is of a high quality, but the quality is in the consistency....the ability for the customers to get what they want time and time again. What I'm trying to get at is when you are in a venue that you are paying that much for, whether your palate can tell or not, aligning themselves with a brand such as Vittoria signifies they've just gone with the status quo. I'm not saying all large coffee suppliers don't meet my ideals of quality, either. It just depends on how the company grew in the first place. Companies such as Toby's Estate and Di Bella are huge nowadays, and grew through their quest for producing the best. The complete flip side of this is another company, whose owner recently stated in Beanscene, with pride "We're not a boutique roaster, we're a large roaster...My vision in the early days was that we had to be a national player if we wanted to work with the corporates". This was Pitzy Folk from Map. I'm once again not saying that this is necessarily a bad thing. They have a vision to make money, just like everyone else, and they've chased that dream, with much success. The point I'm trying to make with the above is that a restaurant that has bottled water tastings to decide which ones they will serve, can tell you with +/- 1 day accuracy on what day an animal was killed, and the age of that animal within a month, should not be aligning themselves with a company that doesn't hold their same philosophical views on the produce they use in their kitchen.

FreshCoffee2

Yes a very good post Richard and I for one am neither agreeing nor disagreeing....and it would be a very interesting experiment for a barista to produce a victoria coffee to the best of his/her ability, and serve it out to said clients in a top restaurant, and when asked what coffee they serve, to say nothing more than....that is is a "very special blend sourced from a roaster with whom we have a "partnership", that has been designed to reflect the type of quality we like to serve in all aspects of our establishment..." or some such thing.....and thereafter get a true,"blind" opinion of the coffee from the appraiser. That would not only eliminate any bias from the clients perception, but also allow the total dining experience to have its effect on the outcome. And then I would be really interested to hear what the clients says about the coffee, because if I am remembering correctly from the original post in this topic, my take is that the problem was actually that the waiter didnt know how to react to the client question and delivered the answer in an unsatisfactory manner. If the waiter had been quick enough to come up with something like the above, the diner would have adjudicated the coffee wholly on its merits which include the standard of preparation of the brew, instead of having his judgement clouded by his perception of the brand image. Dont get me wrong, I am not defending the restaurants choice of coffee, and am simply putting across that there is always more to it than meets the eye. **************************** An insider viewpoint: Above you stated to the effect that some large roasters got there by trying to do the best they can (and are therefore worthy of some support) and I assume therefore, that you meant that others didnt / arent. I have no tie to victoria and they are an aggressive, tough competitor in the market however.....I believe there they get unfairly bashed a little too often in these sites. Guys, that is the company that brought commercial espresso coffee and faema espresso machines to Australia. Their flagship blend was better than anything else available for years, particularly in comparison to Italian imported blends, and by virtue of their early success turned into a large company. For years they supported the Sydney Fine Food Coffee Competition (Royal Easter Show) and god knows how many other worthy ncauses in coffee, they have expertise where most of the rest of the coffee industry here can only dream to follow. What do you think is happening to Toby's et al????? They are undergoing exactly the same metamporphosis as victoria and have become large companies and are now trading on the name that they built in the past when they were much smaller except they arent any more are they? The differentiation is in the publics perception of "the brand". It view of this turn in the discussion, it would be interesting to take a bag of the Vittoria flagship blend, and the same from Toby's, and do a professional, blind comparison between them. Wouldnt that let the cat amongst the pigeons, because I tnink you would find they are just different to eachother rather than finding that one is "bad" and one is "good"! The apparent "official" standpoint in these forums always appears to be that "small roasters are good while big roasters are evil". What I have been  trying to impress on the readers in my posts in this topic, is that is not necessarily so (and lets not forget just how ALL roasters are subject to what sort of a job the barista has done on their beans at any particular time and place). I dont care how much anyone bashes vittoria coffee there is no love lost but....people should not just bash for bashing sake and could / should take a broader and much more realistic / honest(?) view. Rgdz, Attilio very first Crema site sponsor

RichardM

I didn't mean that others didn't get to the top by being good brands - merely just alluding to some I knew a *little* about. TBH I haven't tried Toby's estate, but agree with the "not all boutique roasters are good" comment. I really like Campos blends, for example, and they are huge. Love Di Bella, but there is one roaster local to me, and one in Brisbane who I won't name which are "Boutique", and one of them I think has poor beans to start with, and the other just burns the crap out of them. I dislike Map and Vittoria based purely on taste. Honestly, if the restaurant served a blend which I thought was nasty, as long as they'd put some thought into it, it wouldn't worry me. As it stands, to align themselves with ANY commercial brand is probably a risk, and having one that they could simply say is "locally roasted to our specifications" would bring it back to taste alone. One other thing that can separate the perceptions of roasters is the "we sell to anyone" aspect. If a company is happy to throw a machine and their marketing material at any cafe who wants it, then they're bound to get a poor reputation, no matter how good the coffee is. I don't honestly know how the industry works in terms of roaster/cafe relationships and training, but if it training isn't enforced to protect their own brand, then it's a worry.

admin

true Attilio - but wouldn't you think by now, with as much exposure as coffee [ie good espresso coffee] gets now in the mainstream press, at least in the large metro centres - that they would by now have slightly better appreciation for what makes a good coffee [especially when that's the thing that finishes off the dining experience]?

mycuppa

For the record, I did end up ordering that coffee after initially declining the offer. I was tired, it was very late, I'd had a couple of glasses of wine over a few hours and had'nt had a coffee in about 11hrs with a 1.5hr drive ahead of me back through quite dangerous roads. It was not very nice and it's the reason I was so upset all the way home, maintained the rage when I got home and then woke up the next morning and decided I just had to vent - the situation deserved some airplay - great food, decent service and crap coffee for 2 @ $220. Out of professional respect I will not name names as it could have been either a skill or product issue - I was in no position to identify.

FreshCoffee2

on 1314868864:

........Notes notes notes missing the notes and NO F$%G raspberries... We had a laugh at and with each other and then I reminded her that ladies have a better vocab...... quote] hehehehehe yeah we run a pretty open family as well and I too have no idea where my daughter could possibly have learned that kind of lingo ! Rgdz, A.