Roasting darker for espresso

Lwowiak

Having read the following thread about Mr Espresso and darker roasts, I am keen to try this myself.
http://www.home-barista.com/knockbox/mr-espresso-old-school-commercial-roaster-and-their-take-on-new-coffee-t19425-10.html
I have tried and enjoyed quote a few blends and SO's that have been roasted darker. Properly prepared they exhibited no hint of ash, but delightful soft, mellow flavours that leave a long lingering aftertaste.
I intend to further explore this "style" of roasting, as my palate has changed and I no longer enjoy fruity acidity in an espresso. Also, my family is not so keen on "acidity cutting through the milk", and prefer caramel and chocolate notes. Cupping with sugar was especially interesting, as I fondly remember an Italian roaster doing the same thing early in my coffee journey.
Comments and opinions are welcome on this old style of Italian roasting. 

FreshCoffee2

Depends on what anyone means when they say "darker". If you go "too dark" on any coffee it will go ashy and bitter. "Dark" doesnt mean "black" of course. Some cultures however like that and roast accordingly. After that, it depends on the way the beans are roasted (heat and air and speed), by whatever method, for whatever origin of beans, and the degree of control any particular roaster has over the roasting process (and therefore the type of equipment used)...because if you want to go darker but dont want to get into ashy bitter territory, you need to have a well controlled process and know exactly where to stop for the type of beans being roasted, for your type of equipment. Oh by the way. By and large the "fruity / acid" character you commented on really is the domain of newcomers to roasting. You will find most well established (commercial) roasters here dont do that....so I think you are wanting to progress to the more traditional and well accepted style of northern Italian roast as done commercially here, rather than to an "old style" of Italian roasting, if that helps. The southern italian (and well copied in the US until recent times) style is to basically burn the beans remembering.....that is what they are accustomed to and like and do purposely. Have fun!

Lwowiak

Thank you for the clarification and reminder on the differences between Nth and Sth Italian roasting styles  . Your input is always appreciated. I do remember having it explained to me many years ago :lamp:. I was introduced to stovetop espresso by friends of Southern Italian descent, and never really enjoyed the taste. The same applied to espresso prepared on a commercial coffee machine. I like beans roasted in the traditional style, and yes it is easy to find good coffee roasted like this. Depending on who you talk to, the definition of a dark roasts varies, and each roaster uses their own interpretation. In the article, the reference to darker roasts was interesting, as in the past I have only come across the southern Italian style, which as you said was traditionally burnt. This made me wary of dark roasted beans, as more often than not, they were always ashy.

FreshCoffee2

Thanks for that much appreciated. There was never really any confusion about what constitutes a "dark roast" until our esteemed buddies in the US got involved and made some colour classifications that just complicated matters and life in general and particularly as they appeared to be following the southern Italian roast style while we dont......They still refer to those classifications but they forgot to mention that in order to roast to all those different stages (on purpose) you would have to be both extremely experienced and good at the job, and have a very expensive roasting plant that can roast to differenciate between minute differences....something that wasnt really available all those years ago when they came up with that stuff. So I reckon the colour codes were used in reverse rather than as something to roast to (eg "....oh look I just roasted to such and such colour classification....wonder if I can duplicate that one next time around...."  ;D  :D  ;D) And that is why I favour very simple classifications...really that's all that is required, and I went through my thoughts on that one a few months ago when this forum was deciding on how to describe what is being roasted by the members. KISS makes life so much simpler  ;D Anyway enjoy your journey, and may I say that just about everything "good" that is submitted to the NSW RAS Fine Food Show (Royal Easter Show) for judjing, is roasted to that kind of traditional northern Italian espresso colour ie....coffee brown! And some manage even at that colour, to get ashy bitternes coming through. Lastly and to reiterate my own thoughts on this: "Dark roast" here = Coffee BROWN aka trad northern Italian roast colour. There are ways of differenciating through "brown" but that will do to start. Attilio very first Crema site sponsor

beanflying

Lots to recommend 'fully roasted' for espresso. Some of the stuff being served up as '3rd wave' is lacking in body, overly acidic due to light roasting. So much so I find myself avoiding espresso or milk base espresso drinks at a lot of the 'top' places around Melbourne. Great for brewed coffees however at those levels. My personal preference for Espresso is to the more modern Australian Italian levels like Attilio is talking about but even some of those commercial roasters offer dark roasts in some cases along with what is now more typical. Worryingly a few of the old school are getting lured into trying to become 3rd wave and not getting it right IMO

askthecoffeeguy

I tried some coffee recently that was 'roasted to the point of destruction' (from the roaster's website) - and indeed it was just that: beans were black and broken and came apart in my hand and they were so oily that they stuck together didn't enjoy it as an espresso at all just found it cloying and unpalatable - but it actually poured quite well and married with the milk for a caffe latte, and the crema was 'gloopy' to say the least! the resulting flavour with milk was quite palatable but more of a novelty (to me) than anything else - also I'm allergic to rancid oils so I came down with a cropper of a headache afterwards which was only relieved with by drinking a bucket load of water followed by a 'decent' latte but that's just me.... 

FreshCoffee2

It's only a personal opinion but I wouldnt equate industry professionalism, expertise or the capability to produce a quality product with anyone that would write that kind of BS on their website. It's in very poor taste (excuse the pun), and would be like a surgeon advertising that he can botch all operations for you. Or is this the kind of professionalism that newcomers (3rd wavers?) bring to coffee roasting? I hope you didnt pay for it (as in it was a fee sample) ! We "collect" packs of coffee from all and sundry as our reps get around the cafes. The only thing I find worse than the above is roasters that have the balls to put absolute crap into expensively artworked packs with outright lies written on....signature blends, master roasted, wood fired, lovingly blended with a recipe handed down 3 generations from father to son, whatever you know the drill.....but because its cheap, enough clients accept it. Packets worth more than the contents....and people drink it. A.

askthecoffeeguy

on 1339841941:

It's only a personal opinion but I wouldnt equate industry professionalism, expertise or the capability to produce a quality product with anyone that would write that kind of BS on their website. It's in very poor taste (excuse the pun), and would be like a surgeon advertising that he can botch all operations for you. Or is this the kind of professionalism that newcomers (3rd wavers?) bring to coffee roasting? I hope you didnt pay for it (as in it was a fee sample) ! We "collect" packs of coffee from all and sundry as our reps get around the cafes. The only thing I find worse than the above is roasters that have the balls to put absolute crap into expensively artworked packs with outright lies written on....signature blends, master roasted, wood fired, lovingly blended with a recipe handed down 3 generations from father to son, whatever you know the drill.....but because its cheap, enough clients accept it. Packets worth more than the contents....and people drink it. A.

I had some clients from interstate who I've been consulting for send me the sample as they were considering using it in their cafe - I told them that IMHO drinking and making  coffee should come with a healthy respect for the quality and terroir of the raw materials that go into making that coffee and that ideally you ought to be able to taste something of the coffee's origins in the blend, and that there should be an appreciation  for the time and effort put in by the farmers who produced the coffee - all of which is lost when you burn something to a crisp I also advised them to attend regular weekly cupping sessions to develop their palates and to form an appreciation of all the subtle nuisances that the coffee journey has to offer - or failing that to start ordering product on line and to conduct their own  cupping seasions - and I directed them towards some Columbian and Sumatra coffees which i believe could offer full bodied flavour without the need to destroy the beans Haven't heard back from them since then which is somewhat ironic as I put a lot of time and effort into the business at startup and they seemed to value my opinion then ...