Ethics 101. Where do we all stand?

UNM

This is not real and is a variation on another ethics example elsewhere but modified to make it at least slightly topical

Just supposing you were roasting a batch of Geisha (we are talking $$$ here) or similar on your deck one fine day...

You glance over the fence and notice an infant crawling across the neighbours patio towards their (poorly fenced) pool, it soon crawls out of eyesight.  A few seconds later you hear a splash, a sudden cry and then nothing.

What to do?

Koffee_Kosmo

A childs life is worth a wasted Geisha Roast even if the neighbors are strange people KK

Brett H

I wouldn't be able to sleep at night unless I had done all I could to rescue the kid.  I would unplug the roaster, dump the beans and run like stink to save the kid.  DR ABC: Danger: burning your own house down in an Ill thought act of heroics.  Anger is spot on to call 000 so you know help is on the way... I'd then move like stink however and dogs... They can be bluffed and bribed... Mostly...

Jonty

Yeah as a parent, I would high jump the fence... Probably knowing my luck, my house would catch fire but then it is material and insured - so replaceable. Jonty

shape_shifter

As much as I want to say serve the gits right and finish roasting I couldn't, I might not like children that much but even I couldn't leave a child to die if I could help.

UNM

trouble with these thought experinents is they are never fully believable. The original was to do with a child falling in a lake at a park and the question was whether you would help at risk of damaging your new and expensive shoes. My reaction was that I would take off my shoes before jumping in to help. will see if any  brave soul is honest enough to click on the harshest option before following up with some clarifying  comments in a day or so.

RichardM

Infants are helpless, still being shaped by their surroundings, and innocent by nature, thus all of them are worth saving. Once they grow up, it's another story. I wouldn't p*** on one of my neighbours houses to put it out if it was on fire.... If I don't know them, I'll save them, innocent until proven guilty etc. If I know them, and they are c***s, let them drown/burn. Moral of the story: You're probably better not knowing me :rofl:

beanflying

If it is a nice Geisha or something fancy yell loudly so the parents hear I reckon, Robusta kill the power and jump the fence  ???

Hatchy

As someone who's relatives lost a child to drowning - this whole thread is disrespectful UNM.

beanflying

It is possible a little off colour but it is a hypothetical to make people think. My applied Maths teacher (and co worker of my Fathers) in year 12 lost a 3 year old to a farm dam so while I may have made light of it I have been touched at a distance by the subject. 

Ol Grumpy

Whilst working inside a clients house in Redland Bay, I heard the splash but when I looked out the window, all I saw was a pair of ducks and a line of ducklings. Thought nothing of it... Some hours later I heard the scream from the lady of the house, out at the pool.... The filter had come on and there were 9 dead ducklings in the skimmer box basket... It was a very sad moment... Later that night I ordered sweet &sour duck from the local t/away... Hmmmm can't beat a feed a' roast duck

UNM

Firstly I owe a public apology to those that I offended - that was not my intention, but once again I am reminded that intentions and results ate often different. Hopefully I  can redeem myself somewhat by the end of the thread. If not I shall edit or delete as appropriate. Interesting responses to the poll. It seems the general opinion is that a child's life is valuable enough for us to make a small but significant sacrifice if the need is immediate. Those who said they would try to save the child did so even though nobody is there to criticise if they do nothing or praise them if they do take action and this even though it is a child they don't know. A child is innocent and is in a very real sense our future. Regardless of the environment they are in, that is worthy of consideration. Secondly we DO behave differently in cases of immediate need to situations we can ponder and evaluate. Also, most of us will go much further to protect family and those close to us than people we don't know. How much would you sacrifice  to help a child you don't know at immediate risk? The cost of a wasted geisha roast (say $50)? a $500 insurance excess on your car if you had to swerve into a parked car to avoid one running into the road? Your own life to try and save a child caught in a rip? It is amazing just how far many of us WOULD go and a testament to the sacrifices we are willing to make that many will take that ultimate risk. And yet, to my shame, until recently I would not have admitted it even to myself, but would have selected the "Make it somebody elses problem" option, or worse. Will post a couple of references this evening when I can get to my email to clarify why I needed a major attitude realignment and what changed.

Kelsey

I think there's very few of us who wouldn't choose to save a life even to our own detriment. Many years ago I was walking on the sidewalk of a very busy suburban street in Summer Hill - the one that all the trucks and savvy commuters use to bypass the Liverpool Rd/Parramatta Rd intersection on their way into the city. To my horror I noticed a toddler had crawled out his terrace house, across the sidewalk and was now hauling himself to standing position on the bumper of the car at the kerbside and working his way around toward the road... But I didn't grab him. Why? Because I'd been a teacher for many years by that point and was raised by teachers - and in this day and age a male picking up a stranger's baby is a recipe for trouble and all sorts of accusations. Instead, I ran to a point where I could reach the child if I had to in a couple of seconds but within shouting distance of the open front door -  and never once took my eyes off the kid. In my loudest (operatically trained) voice I shouted to the parents inside, who came running and grabbed the kid. With me there he would never have made it onto the road - I would have grabbed him if he'd made it even one foot closer to the road (he was at about the rego plate when the parents reached him) no matter the personal cost. I shudder to think what would have happened had I not been there. Now that I'm a parent it's my biggest nightmare. I think now I would grab the kid regardless of consequence - my heart wouldn't be able to take the stress! Sidenote - the shouting that began to emanate from the interior of that house was incredible to behold. Someone was in the doghouse that night.

RichardM

Based on what Kelsey says above, this reminds me of the Milgram experiment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment The experiment basically states that as long as people are not held accountable, people can do horrible things. I can take that once further, and state that apathy is a horrible thing, and in cases like you were in, Kelsey, everyone else would have probably done the same as you if they were the only ones around. As soon as there are a group of people, you usually get what is called the "Bystander effect". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect As soon as I found out about this phenomenon, I vowed to not ever expect "someone else" to do something (as was the case the other day when I was the only one to pull over after witnessing a car crash. At least 20 other cars simply drove off).

Kelsey

Pretty sure the results of the Milgram experiment have been thoroughly discredited - but no-one can deny the experiment itself was pretty inhumane.

Koffee_Kosmo

I have saved a young child in similar circumstances to what Kelsey describes I was driving along and a small child ran out of the gate - not sure if he squeezed past or it was left open ? as I can't remember Anyhow as I said and now continuing to my actual story I was driving in my car and ahead I saw it all unfolding aprox 50 meters ahead I slowed down to a crawl and to act as a barier I approached The child just kept on going towards the road and I stopped instantly, jumped out of the car and scooped him up Then went to the gate he originaly came out of and yelled out Hello ? ARE YOU MISSING ANYONE Mother ran out grabbed the child from me more as relief  ( not angry at me but at oneself) I explained what transpired and she was very thankful and relieved And on I went home never to see them again KK

UNM

Hope everyone had a good fathers day. Essentially what I am asking everyone to consider is how well their ACTIONS  live up to their stated INTENT. Whether you change behaviour as a result is less important than that you stop and think about the fact you CAN take meaningful action now. That action will allow someone to still be a parent next fathers day rather than exist in the special hell reserved for those who have lost a child - such a loss never goes away and the pain does not reduce. The need is just as immediate as if a child was drowning right next door, just not as immediately visible. Does that make it any less important? Consider the  Bystander Effect Richard noted. Also remember that inaction and apathy are just as ethically wrong as undesirable actions. Here are couple references that will hopefully make you think (and take action to save the life everyone claims they would). http://www.thelifeyoucansave.com/idea http://www.givewell.org/ Quote from an email I got from Peter Singer a couple days ago: 'When did you last spend money on something to drink, when drinkable water was available for nothing? If the answer is