GRIND OFF! The results...

Kelsey

On Friday, Ronin and I met up at his place of work in Brisbane for a mini grind off, the follow up to the 'Can You Taste It?' thread.

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The idea was to figure out how prominent the differences are between a died-in-the-wool consumer grinder and some of the more top-end gear.

The contestants were:

1) My Breville Smart Grinder. Original edition, one small shim, used for between 6 and 10 coffees a day
2) The cafe Super Jolly doser
3) Ronin's Kony E

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I bought a kilo of beans from Tim Adams, his current "Season 9" blend. It's not my favourite of his roasts, but I felt (and Tim agreed) that it would be a better choice for the grind off due to its balance and complexity.

We kicked off as the cafe was closing and had about 90 minutes of playing around time ahead of us.

The first thing that struck me is how ingrained your own habits become. I was completely thrown by not single-dosing beans into a spare basket, weighing them and weighing each dose ahead of time. Eventually I gave up weighing all together and just went with the Mark I Eyeball method.

The Breville dialled in fairly quickly and was soon pouring a decent 30ml shot in the right amount of time.

Similarly we got both the Mazzer's in the range pretty quickly and were soon seeing similar looking results across all grinders.

First some photos...

Grind from the Breville:

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Pour from the Breville:

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Grind from the Kony:

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Pour from the Kony:

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I didn't bother taking a pic of the grind from the Super Jolly - the doser pretty much makes this irrelevant. What blew me away was how much coffee was floating around in the doser, what an absolutely HUGE throw left the thing has and how much I do not want a doser on my kitchen bench. I can understand why some people do, I understand the perceived distribution benefits (which I don't agree with) and can't imagine a messier, more fiddly piece of equipment to clutter my benchtop with.

Here's the pour:

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Sorry, blurry pic. Suffice to say that it turned out looking like the others for the most part.

We repeated the shots multiple times, going through close to half a kilo in our testing. We weren't scientific about it, didn't do blind (or double-blind) taste tests... just dialled the machines in, pulled shot after shot and chatted about what we were tasting while shooing away customers who didn't realise the cafe was closed.

Here's what I got:

1) Tim Adam's Season 9 is an extremely balanced blend. Done right, it has a very full mouthfeel, big body, nice bottom chocish tones, nice bright top end and a pleasantly full and complex middle. I struggled to identify any particular flavour, but a hint of aniseed came to mind.

2) The Breville and the Kony both produced flavours across the entire range of the shot.

3) The Super Jolly felt thinner with a big choco bottom and a 'brittle' top-end brightness and virtually nothing in the middle. Still nice, but nowhere near as balanced as the Kony or (I felt) even the Breville.

4) it seems like a little conical and a big conical have more in common flavour-wise than a big conical and big flat burr. The Kony tasted very similar to the Breville, just 'more so'. Sorry, can't describe it any better, it was just a bigger flavour.

Conclusion
After this run through I know I'd rather stick with the Breville than get a typical flat burr. I'd have liked to have put a Vario in the mix as I've heard they produce different results and I've enjoyed the shots I've had at Lacehim's place.

The Kony definitely produced what I felt were superior results - at least for my palate. Clean, clear, balanced and big.

If you're chasing the kind of flavours that a flat burr provides, then have at it, but I prefer the balance of the conical - at least for this blend.

Is it worth an extra $2,000+ to step up to a Kony, compared to a Breville?

I don't have an answer for that. I will say that I'm satisfied that I can produce great espresso with the Breville and that it lacks nothing in terms for grinding finely enough for espresso. If I had the opportunity to upgrade to a doserless big conical without such a huge expense, I think I'd go for it.

Postscript - I know I seem down on the Super Jolly. It's true, my preference is definitely for the Kony or even the Breville. But I recognise that I tried just the one bean and the one machine and in a limited period of time. That doesn't give us the whole picture, but I felt it gave me the answers I was looking for.



Thanks to Ronin for generously providing his Kony and his employer's space to play. I had a blast and particularly enjoyed hanging out later at one of his favourite brew bars in Fortitude Valley.

derrilex

Hmmmmm, maybe I should pull out my BSG and give it another go

Lacehim

Nice write up Kelsey, and it sounds like and Ronin had a great afternoon. And where was my invite?  My Vario could have been there!  8)  :pan

on 1376735802:

particularly enjoyed hanging out later at one of his favourite brew bars in Fortitude Valley.

Where's the place?  The only place we have is Clandestino's in Noosa, but certainly not a dedicated brew bar place.

Ronin

on 1376745679:

Where's the place?  The only place we have is Clandestino's in Noosa, but certainly not a dedicated brew bar place.

LTD espresso and brew bar in Fortitude Valley in Brisbane. Top rated by me and beanhunter, but with Luke Shilling as owner is was always going to be great. Really nice guy and one of if not the most coffee knowledgable guys in Brisbane. It was a good test but in reality the results were as expected for me. The flat burr grinders grind a consistent size particle where as the conical s will grind a more inconsistent particle size which will extract a larger range of flavours. There are a number of theories floating around re which grinder in which application, but IMOP try it and make your own choice. I would have liked a larger flat burr (Mazzer Major) too. I'll echo Kelsey's results with the Kony being the one I'm glad I'm taking home. I did some testing before Kelsey arrived with the house blend form Cup Speciality Coffee and the Kony brought more to the cup with that blend too, but not by as much, and with our most common drink sale being a 12oz white coffee of some sort, the difference will be lost anyway. The Jolly can be messy but without the doser I'd struggle to keep up in the busy times. It's all about managing the equipment you have to the best of your ability. You can manage the throw left from the doser too to some extent. I'd like to thank the owners at The Golden Pig Food and Wine School for the test.

Kelsey

on 1376745679:

Nice write up Kelsey, and it sounds like and Ronin had a great afternoon. And where was my invite?  My Vario could have been there!  8)  :pan Where's the place?  The only place we have is Clandestino's in Noosa, but certainly not a dedicated brew bar place.

I would've loved to Lacehim but Ronin and I needed to keep it all fairly low-key to keep the owners comfortable with what we were doing. Hopefully we can arrange something similar with the next social - I'd love to have a pump VS lever brew-off, plus GRIND OFF v2, adding in the Vario and a big flat burr. My remarks disparaging the Super Jolly and doser are also purely about home use - a doser can clearly be a huge benefit in a busy cafe. I'm also sure some home users love them too, but I can't imagine being one of them!!

Kelsey

Also, shot of LTD: [attachimg=1]

Lacehim

I've always said that there is a big difference between home and commercial use for grinders. Bigger grinders end up holding more grinds which doesn't suit home use.  I would like to see someone develop zero retention grinders like the vario, without the size of the commericals, but with the bigger burrs of the big commercials.  I'm sure KK will have a mockup by christmas! I will have to check out LTD next time I'm in Brisbane.

Ronin

I'll add something Lacehim to bigger grinders & retention. Bigger conicals hold more, not so much flat burrs. A short purge on a flat burr should do it. The biggest advantage of a big burr set is the adjustment. I think we could have done better with the Kony if time permitted.

Ronin

Something I forgot to add, I've heard flat burrs give better choc/caramel flavours and conicals give more fruits. Not done any testing myself tho. Kelsey, I forgot to ask what you thought of the coffee you had off the house blend?

mycuppa

on 1376780867:

Something I forgot to add, I've heard flat burrs give better choc/caramel flavours and conicals give more fruits. Not done any testing myself tho.

There is a bit of truth to that urban myth, but as we know in testing there are still so many variables that are difficult to precisely control - it is quite challenging to produce identical shots back to back, even with the best equipment. Given the same coffee bean/blend input, the choc versus fruit outcome can be influenced more by shot temp combined with grind and dose styles, e.g. a finer grind and lower dose combined with a lower temp may give you a slight choc bias that could be tending towards sour if taken to the extreme (ultra fine and low dose + low temp with hard/dense beans). It also depends upon at which point the shot starts to "open up" - which will vary or alter the cup character. A tighter shot that remains "closed" (or stopped, e.g. a double rizzy) for the majority of the shot may give more fruit. When it comes to "what notes" the most important aspect to keep in mind here is that shot temp and extraction efficiency (or effectiveness) are the primary factors affecting the outcome. In many situations, a good barista can compensate or "re-engineer" the shot to bias "cup notes" to their desired preferences. A good evaluation guys - well done.

derrilex

All I see are the words truth, to, myth, flat, burrs, better, choc. I'm sold, flat burrs forever for me then :D :D

Brett H

Brilliant thread guys!  I love the Superjolly/f5 grinders!! I wouldn't be without one... But the big conical is where I'm at presently.  That may change.  What a great hobby!!

Kelsey

on 1376780867:

Kelsey, I forgot to ask what you thought of the coffee you had off the house blend?

It was a bit hard to tell - I've just moved to a super-duper new toothbrush which is nothing short of incredible.... Even after an hour's drive I still had that minty-fresh feel and it didn't really help with defining the coffee flavour! I should've had another shot in amongst the other few dozen....