Is there something wrong with my coffee taste?

Ol Grumpy

Hi Laurent, There's a few of us around Brisbane and greater SE Qld. I'm actually moving in the next couple of weeks to Alexandra Hills, myself. Get togethers tend to be spontaneous and informal, at best. Although members do certainly cross paths from time to time. There was an organised social some time back up on the Sunshine Coast. And there's been talk of another at a couple of members homes, once renovation projects, etc are completed, etc. Occasionally one or other of the site sponsors will put on say an annual 'Stocktake Clearout' and that's a good time to 'catch-up'. So yes I've found this bunch to be a warm friendly bunch that will get together if the opportunity presents itself....

C-man

OG if your moving up cool! I still  want to host a social if and when I get construction finished. By the way Basket size plays a big part in Short black shots, this could  very well be the difference between the Rosso and my S24 now that I have cooled the temp. down.  The higher the dose, the more structured the shot; the lower the dose, the creamier and softer tasting the shot. I read the humble 7gr. single basket may be the go, much harder to dial in but much softer shot better tasting shot. I will have to give it a go 

mycuppa

I'm not sure about that theory C-Man. In a commercial environment with high-end Synesso and LM's, we have been achieving different (improved) results with the larger baskets - lots of experiments with 15, 18, 20 and 22g baskets - low, medium and high dosing. Overall, the larger baskets performed far better for the double-rizzi's and short-blacks. Fruit and acids were more obvious in the larger baskets. So yes, baskets and technique play a huge factor. For VST's, whilst providing superior shots in some instances, were far less forgiving - often resulting in a degree of channeling that became more difficult to eliminate on the larger dosage. We also looked at soft versus hard pucks. Some of the cafes I work with have reverted back to Synesso baskets for improved levels of reliability/consistency and more importantly that ideal "rounded and balanced" cup we so desire. I am now seeing a trend towards a softer puck.

Brett H

That's interesting Jeff.  I've always found the VST unforgiving in relation to dose so can understanding in a high volume pressure situation that any finicky element in the work flow is best deleted.  Soft pucks eh... Does this account for less acidity: ristretto like shot? Jeff your Pods were a huge hit with my friend who is now worried he can't go back to Neswretcho.  That he acknowledges that nesxpisso is awful means that like Laurent our OP, there's nothing wrong with his coffee taste, just his standards.  You've helped him bridge the gap!  Thanks mate!!

Ol Grumpy

Curious you mention that @MC... Ie softer pucks... I use the OE Slap-Shot method of dosing/tamping. After collapsing the grounds (20-21g) in the basket with a good Thwack- Thwack on the tamping mat- the Tamp is very much a flattening and polish only tamp. The puck is a 'soft puck'... OTOH C-man uses a slightly larger dose and he's definitely in the 'firm puck' camp when it comes to tamping... At best, anecdotally, our little shot-fest last weekend with your beans; confirmed your findings...

mycuppa

Thanks Brett. The Nespresso-compatible capsules have been hard work and a long journey during 2013.......of course some of the credit needs to be apportioned to Mark Beattie @ CapsulePack - a craftsman in the true sense. Soft puck - it's more about grind, tamp and dose. Some cafes were hard-core hard-puck - around 25g in a 22g basket - ground fine and tamped hard, squeezed the shot. We are seeing a more natural trend now for say 20 to 21g in a 22g basket, fine grind, dose low and a softer puck as a result with less channeling. Flavor more refined and rounded. Acidity more balanced. Less under or over-extraction.

lmz

Hummm, looks like I am off to buy one of these 18/20g Synesso basket. Do you know any retailer in Brisbane selling these Synesso baskets? Sometimes I wished I did not embarked on that journey  ::) Laurent

mycuppa

on 1389440730:

Curious you mention that @MC... Ie softer pucks... I use the OE Slap-Shot method of dosing/tamping. After collapsing the grounds (20-21g) in the basket with a good Thwack- Thwack on the tamping mat- the Tamp is very much a flattening and polish only tamp. The puck is a 'soft puck'... OTOH C-man uses a slightly larger dose and he's definitely in the 'firm puck' camp when it comes to tamping... At best, anecdotally, our little shot-fest last weekend with your beans; confirmed your findings...

OG - I still think it's horses for courses......no hard and fast rules apply......and it's more about adapting to your kit. I was a tad surprised the other day when at The Old Chamber in Collins Street. The boys are gun baristas and had been working on balancing the cup on their very special LM Mistral - tweaking the baskets, grind and dose. They use big baskets and the dose was what I had originally thought would be frightfully low but the resulting shots were magnificent. A nice soft, spongy puck in the portafilter afterwards.

Ol Grumpy

Well, yes, of course, horses for courses... And indeed, I agree, there are no hard and fast rules.... And my oh my, gun Barista's, well who am I to say, a mere Noob, no less... Funny thing is my humble shots are to die for... So yes, what would I know... Grumpy Ol' bustad, I am.... Edit: please excuse my bad manners.... Late at night... One too many Wodka's.... Makes mild mannered Andrew a Grumpy Ol' bustad.... In all seriousness, I sincerely believe the Rossa is way underestimated. It is a lot of fiddling, pre-heating, winding, but it is also very rewarding. I'm not doing anything but concentrating on getting the basics right and the device is capable of so much more...

C-man

on 1389470379:

Old Grumpy's shots are excellent, this is what has me so frustrated and ready to improve the taste of mine grasping at straws. I have had many a shot handed to me at different roasters up here but all  had the bitter front tongue bite none like grumpys. I am still not sure what a soft puck is?    wet puck?  lightly tamped puck? please explain.

C-man

I just pulled out the Tipple basket and ground even finner, dropped the dose so low the tamper disappeared into the basket! Flushed the the holly snappin duckhit out of the machine them pulled a slightly restricted shot, Fully nailed it!  like OG's shot and when I added just a little milk it was very sweet "blood orange" this was the  same My cuppa Rwanda beans. I would say this was the best coffee  made this year. the puck was gooey by the way.

Ronin

C-man here is a test for you. After pulling a shot, remove your group handle and before you knock out used puck, push your finger into it. Hard puck will be unforgiving, soft will be easy to push your finger into a long way. Gooey puck=soft  :thumb: to the point that the puck can fall apart when being knocked out instead of holding together. A hard puck is an indication of overdosing, this can lead to an uneven extraction, especially if the distribution is poor. Congrats on the great extraction. A long flush will cool off the temp somewhat so if it starts to get sour perhaps a shorter flush. FWIW I find with the VST baskets a low dose with a firm tamp gives me constant results without channelling. I am a fan of improving what skills you have before upgrades. I use to want always better equipment but lately I've been thinking of a downgrade for home use.

on 1389441334:

Hummm, looks like I am off to buy one of these 18/20g Synesso basket. Do you know any retailer in Brisbane selling these Synesso baskets? Sometimes I wished I did not embarked on that journey  ::) Laurent

Hi Laurent Quick question, you mentioned you made a great shot, then are taking about a new basket. Why, if what you have made a great coffee for you then why change now? Don't fall into the trap of getting something new because someone else had a great coffee from a different basket than you have. Taste is subjective

askthecoffeeguy

I use vst baskets at work on the mirage and lazer cut shower screens as well, and the resulting shots are magnificent with my 20g baskets! The only thing I find with the vst baskets is that the tiny holes tend to clog with oils a lot faster than would otherwise be the case - which means that they need to be rinsed more frequently - which should be a regular part of the batista's routine anyway And I'm enjoying some magnificent single origin Colombia coffee from Jeff through the machine at the moment - it's one of the best espressos I've had in a long, long time -lots of repeat orders yesterday!

C-man

Ronin- I think I got the puck like you say, I did poke it and it was kinda  like a soft moist cake when I knocked it out it broke into 3 pices I am working on  My technique before I step up to the new  grinder, It will have a hard act to follow now.

lmz

on 1389490252:

Hi Laurent Quick question, you mentioned you made a great shot, then are taking about a new basket. Why, if what you have made a great coffee for you then why change now? Don't fall into the trap of getting something new because someone else had a great coffee from a different basket than you have. Taste is subjective

Hi Ronin, thanks for your very wise and rational comment. Very true but unfortunately sounds like my wife (love you dear...just in case). This is one of those got to try bigger basket thing.... Not too much investment involved just my time;) And wife does not need to know... She does not even drink coffee!!!! Laurent

lmz

So, after some more trials here what I came up with regarding mycuppa beans: - Suuweet: good body rich crema, intense flavour - Mocha: my favourite so far. Did some great shots with these. Flavour not too strong. - Redemption of the Spro: quite subtle coffee. Very different flavours in the nutty, chocolate and berries (for my untrained palate anyway). However I did not like the 'smoky' type flavour which you can taste and smell from the beans. Now I have changed the burrs on the grinder (could not believe how worn out they were...after nearly 10years!) and fitted a 18g VST ridgeless basket so I am off to experiment a bit more and hopefully will try to recreate the couple of great shots I got previously. One thing I noticed after hours of pouring shots is that I can start to SEE from the first drop what is going to be a good shot (usually when pour starts with a few drops then get into a thin but rich honey type flow). However I had to remove myself a bit from the guidelines of 25sec for 30ml shot. IT seems that my shots take a bit longer (more 35sec) before I get around 30ml. Hope this is acceptable (!). Laurent

Ronin

[quote author=LMZ link=topic=5135.msg43638#msg43638 date= However I had to remove myself a bit from the guidelines of 25sec for 30ml shot. IT seems that my shots take a bit longer (more 35sec) before I get around 30ml. Hope this is acceptable (!). Laurent [/quote] It's only acceptable if it tasted great  :thumb: Seriously tho the 25 to 30 sec guide is no set rule. If it tasted great then it's right. You may need to fine up the grind for the VST basket, they tend to run faster. Also take ACg's advice and clean it often, smaller holes get clogged easier.

lmz

Thanks Ronin, Indeed I could not believe how much faster the first pour was and how much more I had to grind fine. Habing said that I also just changed the burrs... And I will keep it clean...

C-man

new burrs will do that, I am having a hell of a time with my new HG one and seasoning the burrs I am getting all kinds of spritzers no matter what I do with the naked. I was actually getting better extractions with the smaller Rosco grinder with more flavors too. But I suspect and hope things will improve as the burrs season in on the HG-one

lmz

on 1388892133:

Oh and following on from my own last post. I only skim this stuff quickly (no disprespect intended) so may have missed it if someone else has already said: Noted you used beans bought from the supermarket to help you learn about technique  and set up.....and that you are waiting on some excellent fresh roasted beans to arrive from Jeff  In that case just be aware that the fresh beans will undoubtedly have a higher density that supermarket beans (due to staling) so the grind setting that your grinder is now set to, will *probably* be too fine for the new bean supply. All you can do is clear out grinder, leave it where it is set, put the new beans in, and work your magic. The flow of resulting coffee will show you which way to go with the grind setting (probably more coarse, possibly significantly more coarse). Just wait and see. If you have to make a change or changes, dont forget to run *existing* grinds right out so the next coffee you make will indeed reflect the change in grind setting. Hope that helps.

I have tried the experiment suggested by UNM; and got a very unexpected result! I only used Jeff's quality beans. first 1/3 of pour: strong/intense but not at all bitter (as I was expecting) 2nd 2/3 of pour: golden part of espresso shot, nice rich crema. my favourite in terms of flavour but needs a bit more grunt. 3rd 3/3 of pour: I did let it run passed the blonding. Very sour. I think this is what gave me some very average shots in the past as I thought that letting it run would get rid of the sourness. I also noticed that I don't get anymore bitterness when the shot is poured correctly. I now fully understand what Attilio and Jeff were saying at the beginning of this journey regarding a pour bitter shot that was actually the result of under-extraction due to the barista technique (my learning curve) rather than type and quality of equipment or beans. Indeed these earlier posts in this thread are highly recommended reading for anyone embarking on this journey. Once again thank you so much all of you for sharing (giving away) your knowledge and put me on the right track of a decent shot. Laurent.