FZRR700 Baby Roaster, by a amateur video producer..

GaryatGala

Well, finally done it!

I promised a few here that I would produce a video of the baby roaster, so I ended up producing not one but two.
Produced in full high definition limited by the quality of the phone and a few hurdles along the way regarding the uploads to Youtube.

The main reason I suppose is to reveal the artisan nature of the roaster.
Very much hands on and using a flame, agitation using human effort and using the senses of sight, sound and hearing along the way of the process.
No electricity, and no motor noises, unlike other roasters.

My preference is to use the roaster for single origins, especially for manual brewing.
It roasts well for light roasts, even though it is equally adept at espresso level roasts too.
I like the way that it is easy to hear the cracks due to the copper drum walls and the lack of ambient noise.
The roaster also reacts quickly to change of heat input.
Produces a great tasting result.

The negative side is the inability to roast large batches and the manual aspect.
Wind may impact on the roast if done outside on a gas butane camping stove for example and therefore affect the outcome.
Mine is done in the kitchen with air con on to extract odours and smoke.

Here are the links.



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I,m not good at making videos so please excuse me for the stammering..

You saw it here first. Enjoy  :thumb:

lemoo

nicely done gary!

GaryatGala

Hey Chris, Thanks mate. I,m glad you liked it.  :thumb: Perhaps it will help those who would like to add another roaster to their collection and coffee journey that is hands on and fun to use. Perhaps it will help them understand more about the science of roasting.

Brett H

MATE....sensational video  :coffee: Heaps of great info and an excellent looking roast at the end.  Terrific work and thanks for sharing!

GaryatGala

Thanks for the kind comment Brett,  :thumb: I took the roast into second crack so that viewers can have some idea of what second crack sounds like. Having said that, the taste of espresso taken into second crack tastes really good. Just my preference is to stop halfway between first and second crack to enjoy the origin characters of the beans and appreciate the work of the farmers at origin. Next on the horizon, a full roasting video of the KKTO...

Lwowiak

Gary, magnificent effort. Thank you for sharing. :thumb: I have the motorized version. I would never have the patience to turn the manual one. I modded mine with a stainless steel hose clamp inside, to act as a stirrer. I still shake it every minute or so. I find the heat source has a huge impact on the roast, and controlling the flame is very important. The little camping stove with Propane canisters works well for me. I tend to open it up and view the beans inside, as well as let any excess chaff escape. They are a great roaster, and perfect for espresso roasts.

Ol Grumpy

Thanks for taking the time to put all that together. Watching that don't you just wish we had smell-a-vision... The missing dimension. I've heard you mention you let that go a little further into 2nd crack than is your usual preference. It would have been great if you mentioned in the video where you'd normally stop roasting... And why... Well you know there's a whole series you could be doin... We'll see you on cable with your own coffee show, in no time....

GaryatGala

on 1389859380:

Gary, magnificent effort. Thank you for sharing. :thumb: I have the motorized version. I would never have the patience to turn the manual one. I modded mine with a stainless steel hose clamp inside, to act as a stirrer. I still shake it every minute or so. I find the heat source has a huge impact on the roast, and controlling the flame is very important. The little camping stove with Propane canisters works well for me. I tend to open it up and view the beans inside, as well as let any excess chaff escape. They are a great roaster, and perfect for espresso roasts.

You're welcome Lwowiak.  There was mention of steel hose clamps being utilized and I,m not sure if it was you. I believe Stucci at CS used a stainless steel serving tongs as stirrers. I have tried installing the same hose clamps you described but it was too damn hard and fiddly. Could not pry open the drum. Tried heating it etc. Nada.

GaryatGala

on 1389863404:

Thanks for taking the time to put all that together. Watching that don't you just wish we had smell-a-vision... The missing dimension. I've heard you mention you let that go a little further into 2nd crack than is your usual preference. It would have been great if you mentioned in the video where you'd normally stop roasting... And why... Well you know there's a whole series you could be doin... We'll see you on cable with your own coffee show, in no time....

Cheers Ol Grumpy  :coffee2: The roaster does give a good indication not just the type of aromas, but also the level of smoke that comes out, and with given experience under one's belt, you get to anticipate the next stage of the roasting process and make changes with less stress and guesswork. Thanks for your suggestion. In fact, I,ll take it on board and add a comment to the video regarding my preference for third wave espresso. As far as a series of videos, I still have the KKTO and the coretto, perhaps latte art, milk steaming, espresso porn....

Lwowiak

on 1389880378:

There was mention of steel hose clamps being utilized and I,m not sure if it was you. I believe Stucci at CS used a stainless steel serving tongs as stirrers. I have tried installing the same hose clamps you described but it was too damn hard and fiddly. Could not pry open the drum. Tried heating it etc. Nada.

I cannot pry mine open as it is welded shut (mine was one of the very first to arrive and needed an adjustment). I placed the hose clamp over the central shaft and pushed it into place with some long nose pliers. A screwdriver is then inserted to tighten up the hose clamp. Long nose pliers are then used to unfurl the "stirrer" arm of the hose clamp. No need to rip the unit apart. I believe you can also undo mine at the motor end, four screws hold the barrel in place on the central rod. I have not tried, because unnecessary tampering usually causes more grief. I hope they will release an updated version of this unit as rumored. If it came with a stirring arm and larger capacity (300g), it would be perfect. I believe the dynamics of the unit change if the capacity gets too large. If you are a fan of third wave espresso, then please wear a fedora when you make your next video production.  :D

samuellaw178

Hi Gary, Nice video once again!  I've seen your video from the Malaysian Coffee forum if you still remember.  Now that I'm in Oz so here I am. :P I have a question before pulling the trigger on the Baby Roaster..real close to pulling it actually. If you don't mind I do need a piece of your experience: Is it true that the coffee needs to be rested less? (1) Flavor wise, is the 3-day rest on Baby Roaster comparable to 10-day rest on Corretto? (another way to put it, does the Baby-coffee peak faster than the corretto? Degassing issue aside) I understand that degassing is only part of the resting, the beans do need some time to develop the 'flavor'. That's why Baby-roasted beans can go straight into the grinder(degassing not needed) after roasting but it would still benefit from resting. (2) If the roast is rested faster on the Baby, does it get stale faster too? On the Corretto I find that I need at least 7 days for the beans to be better but it's still not optimal yet. If I were to rest the beans for 14 days, I would need to keep twice the inventory, which is a bit off-putting. So right now I'm drinking beans from Day-7 onwards, which sometimes gives bubbly crema (depending on the beans) and the taste is still a little harsh. (3) Also, do you find that the flavor from Baby Roaster more smokey in comparison to Corretto? Oh, the context is for mainly espresso. Couldn't care less about brew for now. :P Many thanks. ^-^ Sam

GaryatGala

I thought i recognize you not just from CS, but from Coffeeloversmalaysia too. Welcome to this small but friendly forum where i am sure you will fit in nicely and the members here are helpful. First of all, the baby roaster roasts the right size batch to last a few days and so, gives you more opportunities to roast more often and lets you gain more experience and understanding through cupping different beans as well as roast level profiles for espresso and third wave manual brewing styles. Plus the benefits of easy storage and portability. The coffee does not seem to require as much resting time compared to the coretto, you will find that the crema in espresso is not as bubbly, though there will be bubbles present. I found that beans do peak earlier, at the same token will stale faster. Certainly you can roast lighter, which will put more emphasis on resting time and move the flavour peak down the timeline, that,s if you want to experience more of the bean origin characters. If you prefer the chocolate and cocoa notes, then roast darker and also enjoy the cup earlier. The coffee does a slight smokey flavour but is not harsh nor intrusive to the cup. There has been the issue of chaff been discussed but I did not find the chaff affect the final flavour of the coffee. Good luck with your decision[emoji4]

Brett H

on 1412486435:

I thought i recognize you not just from CS, but from Coffeeloversmalaysia too. Welcome to this small but friendly forum where i am sure you will fit in nicely and the members here are helpful. First of all, the baby roaster roasts the right size batch to last a few days and so, gives you more opportunities to roast more often and lets you gain more experience and understanding through cupping different beans as well as roast level profiles for espresso and third wave manual brewing styles. Plus the benefits of easy storage and portability. The coffee does not seem to require as much resting time compared to the coretto, you will find that the crema in espresso is not as bubbly, though there will be bubbles present. I found that beans do peak earlier, at the same token will stale faster. Certainly you can roast lighter, which will put more emphasis on resting time and move the flavour peak down the timeline, that,s if you want to experience more of the bean origin characters. If you prefer the chocolate and cocoa notes, then roast darker and also enjoy the cup earlier. The coffee does a slight smokey flavour but is not harsh nor intrusive to the cup. There has been the issue of chaff been discussed but I did not find the chaff affect the final flavour of the coffee. Good luck with your decision[emoji4]

Excellent answers to many of my own questions! Thanks mate!

samuellaw178

Those are great info mate. Much appreciated! I like the portability and less resting aspect of the Baby. Another important benefit for me is that I can roast in the kitchen under the hood. Currently I'm roasting in the balcony next to the bedroom. Other place is not possible due to the lack of electrical plug point. So every time after the roast my bedroom will smell like a roastery. Not that it's a bad thing, but my wife doesn't appreciate it (she's not complaining but I do feel bad). The smokey flavour tendency aspect is something I am leery about, and I encountered exactly that with my DIY drum roaster previously. Regardless, no roaster is perfect and the Baby seems to tick most of the box for now. I was looking at Quest M3 as another alternative but looking at the cost maybe next round... Hopefully to add to the knowledge pool once I get mine, but Gary seems to get most base covered. Thanks again!

GaryatGala

One thing i noticed with roasting under a efficient rangehood is some roasting smells will still emanate into the house, especially from first crack onwards. With consideration to your wife,  the baby roaster can be used in a sheltered place outside using a gasmate camping stove for your convenience and portability. Wind can affect the roast, so positioning is important. Another advantage of roasting outside is chaff management.

samuellaw178

The good news is - the bedroom is at the first floor and the kitchen at ground. No problem there I reckon. Though roasting outdoor is a possibility and sounds fun on its own. We will see. :D Now I'm awaiting for email response to order the Baby. Exciting time!

Lwowiak

on 1412486435:

The coffee does not seem to require as much resting time compared to the coretto, you will find that the crema in espresso is not as bubbly, though there will be bubbles present. I found that beans do peak earlier, at the same token will stale faster. The coffee does a slight smokey flavour but is not harsh nor intrusive to the cup.

I cannot compare resting times to a coretto, as I have never used one, but I find the rest times can be shorter than other methods. You can enjoy the coffee from day one without the usual grassy flavours associated with an under developed roast, but I find the coffee does improve with age, and resting for five days really enhances the flavours. Not sure what you mean by bubbles in the crema. I find the beans peak in accordance with the roast profile and depth. If you roast into SC (rolling) then the beans will peak earlier and stale quickly, but unless it is an accident, I do not roast that dark, apart from a couple of specific beans. Roasting dark and obtaining tasty espresso without ashy flavours is an art (don't knock it until you have tried it). I find most of my beans will last 3-4 weeks with no issues. MM roasted gently peaks at 30 days with wonderful crema. I am intrigued that you detect a slight smokey flavour from the baby roaster. I have never experienced this. With chaffy beans I open and inspect the roast about 2-3 times during the process, so this may be the reason. It is a wonderful roaster with amazing control. I find the addition of  an internal stirrer helps (stainless steel hose clamp), but still shake every minute or so. My suggestions for an improved version would be: -internal stirrers -increased capacity. I believe the unit could handle 300g if its size was increased in accordance with its unique design and shape. The camping stoves produce heaps of heat, I never use the flame any higher than 50%, so there is the ability to increase the batch size; if the size of the roaster was enlarged. Keep the roaster away from the wind. I roast in the garage, with the door and windows open. The roasting smell stays around for days. Only a very brave man roasts inside. My wife would reward me with a kiss on the back of my head (with her cast iron frypan).

samuellaw178

on 1412569279:

Not sure what you mean by bubbles in the crema.

I could take a photo of the bubbly shots when available. It's typical of what happened when the beans has not been rested/degassed properly (it's also bean-dependent) in my experience. Right off the spout, you could get a textbook looking flow. But the thing is the crema dissipates very quickly under 30 sec and the shot volume is reduced by 20-40%. The taste is typically harsher on the tongue too. In comparison, a normal shot's crema could last at least 1 minute with about 5-10% volume reduction(some of the crema inevitably dissipates, which is normal).

on 1412569279:

Roasting dark and obtaining tasty espresso without ashy flavours is an art

This.is.gold. How can one achieve that? There're some good dark roasts I'd tried and it's amazing without excessive bitterness/ash. But when I do that I only get rubbish. I looked up google that normally has answers to everything, but most people seems to roast lighter than darker.

samuellaw178

Colour me impressed!!!! This may be too early make a conclusion but omg, it's sooo good!! ??? But first, let me go back for the complete story. Thanks to Brendan from Beangreen for super fast response and great service. Ordered on Monday evening and shipped on Tuesday. Took Aus Post a few days though to get here (Friday). Everything is well packed, even accompanied by some great beans from Brendan and some one way valve bags (that I shamelessly asked Brendan). Thanks so much! So I opened and checked the Baby roaster. Immediately I noticed a concern that has been posted on other forum. On Baby Roaster, there're two handles. One end is the fixed handle, the other is the, I call it, pop handle - which you pop open to check the beans. The thing is, if you insert the pop handle all the way in, you will notice a gap (in the picture) which may allow beans to fall off during roast. To prevent that, I insert some filler into the pop handle so it doesn't get inserted all the way in. Easy fix! (But I'm not 100% if it was even a problem to begin with) Before I start roasting, I did a dry run on the kitchen stove - also to check which stove fits better. And I'm glad I did that because soon I saw some smoke coming out of the Baby Roaster. I suspect that's the wisdom for running a few sacrificial roast before the actual one. There may be some manufacturing residuals that needs to be cleaned off. So I let the Baby Roaster cool down and give it a wash with sponge in the inner drum. Off to first roast! Worried about spoiling the great beans from BG, I throw in some old Mountain Top Estate beans (200g). The roast was done on full heat to see if it was enough. First crack didn't happen until about 13 min, which then I turn down the heat during rolling first crack. Roast pulled out at 17:15 min which I thought was second cracks (I then realized it wasn't). It was more like Full City or FC+. Off the roaster, the beans smell rather coffee-ish. Unlike the Corretto (or my previous DIY drum roaster), they will smell grassy and need a while before actually smells like coffee. So, I want to test is it true that we can go straight from the roaster into grinder. I weighed 16g on the Rosco Mini (My usual espresso grind, no dialling in needed). Upon grinding, I immediately notice a sweeter aroma than usual. But it didn't matter if the taste is no good. So, on the Rossa HC it goes. The flow was great looking, thick honey flowing out of the spout, just like any well rested roast. Most importantly, no visible bubbles. The crema did settle a bit but MUCH better than the Correto. When I had my first sip, WOW! This is so good! Sweet sweet sweet, thick, lingering aftertaste. Definitely the best shot I have had in a while! The surprise is, the acidity is very obvious, but it's so mild, accomodating and very pleasant overall. And now, that's what I called fruity acidity. I normally despice acidity in my shot. Reason being go to any third wave cafe and it's almost certain they'll serve orange juice. Because this roast is done earlier than I expected,it is more acidic than I normally let, but I' glad it happened. This is the first time I have experienced such pleasant acidity. I may even consider doing this from now on. Honestly, using the Baby Roaster isn't the easiest thing to do. Finger gets tired and the crack sound isn't as obvious as in Corretto. The batch is only 200g green. But the gain is you don't need to rest as much. And I've got great result right off the bat. The result is so staggering good (Hope it's not a fluke!). Best of all, I can roast in the kitchen if I want. There're some lingering smell, but it's not too bad. Seriously, this Baby Roaster knocks my socks off! Can't wait for the next roasts!

GaryatGala

Great post samuel.[emoji2] I was a early adopter of the roasters. A bit of a gap too on my example but dont think as much a gap as yours. I can only presume it,s a improvement on the design. Great to know you have knocked up a first great roast. You will find the copper will gradually take on a grey color over time. Will try take a pic of mine later to compare the gap.

samuellaw178

Thanks Gary. The photo is probably exaggerating the gap more than it is (due to the shooting angle). Since I've put the filler in the pop handle, the gap is much smaller than it was in the picture. In any case, I don't have any bean that falls off (zero) when I'm roasting 200g. That's what that matters I reckon. I have done a few bit more roasts since the first post. My impression of the Baby is still very positive. There's only one downfall that I'd encountered - I happened to roast a Harrar which has very soft first cracks. Rolling first crack is basically non-existence. I kept waiting for the rolling first crack to happen and when I did hear cracks, it was clearly the second crack (rice cracker sound than pop corn). Due to this, the development time was shorter than I'd normally do (2 min as opposed 4 min because I didn't turn down the heat in time). The roast has a little astringency at first(day 1), but that has subdued quite a lot after 2 days rest. If I had no prior experience roasting coffee, I'd probably take the second crack as a rolling first crack. It'd have been a much worse disaster. This batch turns out to be quite drinkable but I'm sure it could have been a lot better. Turning the handle is a bit tiresome but I'm quite convinced the motorized version is not the solution. Reason being when I tried to turn the Baby Roaster 360 degree (the intuitive way and the way how the motorized version works), the beans just slide off the slippery drum. I suspect on the motor it's the same thing happening and thus many uneven roast from the early reports. Flickering the Baby 180 degree back and forth, like what Gary did in the video, seemed to be the best way and I can clearly feel the beans getting agitated. That (Harrar) asides, my other roasts had turned out very well and all of them are quite even looking. The body and flavors of my espresso seemed to be better than it was with the Corretto. Could be honeymoon effect, but I'm cetainly enjpoying my shots more than before. :D Another thing I had noticed, the beans that are brought into second crack on the Baby, look a tint lighter than it was in the Corretto. Did any of you observe the same thing?

GaryatGala

I normally can hear both first and second crack with all beans even under a operating rangehood. I aim for 9-10 minutes to first crack due to less lag of the small batch compared to bigger mass of  500gm for a coretto. Turning the handle certainly is tiresome if you only use one hand. I use one hand to turn initially, then when finger fatigue sets in, use the other hand help turn in order to alleviate effort. You do find out turning the beans are easier when they get to yellowing stage onwards compared to green when the bean surface is smoother and heavier. I did not find much of a difference in color compared to the coretto. Light roasts are excellent. Impressive results through the Curtis Gold Cup brewer and compares well with the cafe,s golden bean winning yirgacheffe.

Koffee_Kosmo

Great wealth of information from Gary A little bit of insight is in order Few people know that Gary got a top 3 place in the Golden Bean home roaster award using the Baby Roaster But because I get lots of phone calls especially when I roast - My choice would be a motorised unit  :angel: KK

samuellaw178

on 1413263681:

Few people know that Gary got a top 3 place in the Golden Bean home roaster award using the Baby Roaster

That says it.  :D By the way, I am roasting in the kitchen under the hood. It's the way to go for me. The exhaust works surprisingly well to eliminate 98% of the smell really. The key is to stay inside the hood, including the cooling process. The small batch has little thermal mass and they cool very fast anyway. I don't think anyone could even tell that I did a roast prior. I roasted one batch this morning in 7.30am while preparing my bento lunch. This is impossible with the Corretto setup that I have, which takes way too long to clean up and not to mention the lingering aroma. I think I will go full-Baby Roaster from now on.

on 1413262925:

I did not find much of a difference in color compared to the coretto. Light roasts are excellent. Impressive results through the Curtis Gold Cup brewer and compares well with the cafe,s golden bean winning yirgacheffe.

It's weird that I do observe quite a huge difference. I took the Brazil this morning into rolling second crack (something I rarely do, I usually pull it upon first sign of SC). And the color looked to be about the Full City(or FC+ max) on Corretto. Same with my first roast, which I thought did not reach SC (but I'm quite certain it did looking back). It looked like it was just a City+ roast. Anyway, appearance didn't matter, just find it odd. With the Baby, how do you take on lighter roast? For espresso roast it's recommended to do 3-4 minute from first crack for the development phase. How'd it be different from a light roast? It can't be just pulling them sooner upon first crack right?

samuellaw178

Here's a webpage shared on another forum. It's about roast milestones by smell - exactly what we Baby Roaster owner do! Should be very helpful to Baby Roaster-er out there! Also, worth mentioning Gary has pointed this out (in the video and on another forum) so this is just a reiteration of that with some temperature guide(not absolute). http://bootcampcoffee.com/aromatic-milestones-basic-coffee-roasting-skill/ Summary: Wet Grass (93 - 116 C) Hay (143 - 160 C) Baked Bread (165 - 180 C) A-Point (Different smell for different beans) (182 - 190 C) First Crack Cheers, Sam

GaryatGala

Sorry for the lag Sam, With reference to cupping, I take it to 30 seconds after the end of first crack. For filter, anywhere from 1-1.30 after first crack. For espresso roast, 2.30-3.00. The roaster certainly provides good sound and aroma clues, with limitations on visual due to having to open and peep.

samuellaw178

Just a little contribution from my part regarding the Baby Roaster. After roasting and tasting about >25 roasts, I can now see a few things more clearly. I think most agree that the best part of Baby Roaster is that you can drink the coffee right off the roaster. But what I haven't seen reported is that the beans at this stage can be decidedly super sweet with its characteristic post-roast flavor. This post-roast flavor is rather interesting, and it's not the same post-roast grassiness you get on other roasters. Coupled with enhanced sweetness, it is certainly very enjoyable. However, if you want to evaluate the true coffee potential, that may skew the picture a little and best done with a 3 days rest. For what it's worth, the current Baby Roaster seems to have some new (subtle) design change while sifting through the information on net. For example in the early days, it was reported the pop handle may be difficult to remove. The current version has sort of a looser fit, so it goes in and out with no friction. The caveat is you will observe a looser fitting (see the gap in my post on first page). But no, the gap doesn't lose any beans in my experience (hopefully will try roasting some small Yemen soon). Another change is the wooden vs bakelite(?) handle. I see some of the wooden Babies around (including Gary's), but the newer ones seems to be the smooth bakelite version. The bakelite ones in my opinion, are too smooth and too small for gripping. The result is sore finger & wrist(my early report). So I have since wrapped a thick foam pad around the Baby's handle(taken from bicycle steering handle). That made flicking/turning the roaster so much easier, and I can easily do 2-3 back-to-back roasting(15min each) without feeling tired. Also, I have since made the stirrer arm mod with two hose clamps, because flicking doesn't agitate the smooth big beans like Indian Elephant Hills too well - was getting a few burn spots. Here's what I notice when I did the mod - the turning handle does not come off anymore in the new version and seems to be glued/stuck/weld. I tried using a long allen key to remove the hex nuts but to no avail. The allen key was already distorting but the nut didn't even budge. Compared to the older reports, some had the turning handle coming loose during mid roast. So it's good to see Coffee-Tech does heed to consumer reports and make changes (but no stirrer yet unfortunately). Finally, I'm getting very very good results with the Baby Roasters. It can do light roasts very well, and good for darker roast too. In fact, I find that I prefer to go lighter roast nowadays, because the acidity from baby roaster don't seem to be as harsh (mybe due to the roast profile I used). This is big for me because in the majority, I despise acidity in my espresso. The down side is, I don't seem to enjoy espresso roasted to the start of second crack, at least not as much as I used to. I'm not sure if that's a taste change on my behalf, or the Baby's dark roast is a little more roasty (or due to my roast profile).

GaryatGala

Always enjoyed reading your take on the roaster Sam. I enjoy using all three roasters, the KKTO, the coretto (now twins) and the baby. The baby tends to be used for domestic single origins. The other two for the restaurant. Have always struggled with the stuck handle when cold, so the solution was to heat the drum, which seems to make it easier for insertion. I don,t know why it is so that the acidity is softened on this roaster. It,s something that studying the effects from the roasting environment on a scientific level inside the drum (ie. air flow, conductivity of the drum etc) would reveal answers to why the bean develops that character.