Conical Grinders. Please recommend one.

Lwowiak

I currently use a Macap M4D. I am interested in changing over to a Conical grinder. Any recommendations are welcome.
I have used a Kony E and found the grind retention (it was stock, no mods) extremely irritating. It retained at least 20g. This meant that you purge in the morning, make a brew with the next shot. If it is no good you have to adjust the grind. This in turn means another 20g purge before you can make a shot with the new adjusted grind size. Making coffee first thing in the morning was a pain.
I am interested in what is out there at the moment, but have limited knowledge due to a lack of interest in the past.
I do have a developed palate, but do not drink acidic coffees. My roast preference (depth of roast) is for espresso, but not too dark.
Given the quality of coffees available now, my interest has been piqued. I have had some very nice coffees made using a conical and a reasonable machine (excellent technique of course), so am wondering what is on the market at the moment.

Thanks in advance to anyone who replies.

mycuppa

on 1456959026:

I currently use a Macap M4D. I am interested in changing over to a Conical grinder. Any recommendations are welcome. I have used a Kony E and found the grind retention (it was stock, no mods) extremely irritating. It retained at least 20g. This meant that you purge in the morning, make a brew with the next shot. If it is no good you have to adjust the grind. This in turn means another 20g purge before you can make a shot with the new adjusted grind size. Making coffee first thing in the morning was a pain. I am interested in what is out there at the moment, but have limited knowledge due to a lack of interest in the past. I do have a developed palette, but do not drink acidic coffees. My roast preference (depth of roast) is for espresso, but not too dark. Given the quality of coffees available now, my interest has been piqued. I have had some very nice coffees made using a conical and a reasonable machine (excellent technique of course), so am wondering what is on the market at the moment. Thanks in advance to anyone who replies.

Lwowiak - my advice is to not get sucked into the hype. IMO, too much forum space is wasted on endless debates about flat blade versus conical and as FreshCoffee often notes, it's promoted and endorsed by those already committed financially to that choice, e.g. purchased and now espousing the justification like a proud parent showing off their newborn. sure, there are many who bang on about how they went through various grinder upgrades and experienced the oh-so-noticeable differences immediately with each upgrade...like some form of minor miracle.........my question is "really"? Always hard to compare back-to-back due to aspects such as accumulated oils or compacted rancid grinds present on the old grinder versus the new, sharp and clean conical. Here's the rub....... Quite a few high-end specialty cafes in Melbourne have a flat-blade grinder sitting next to their conicals just for working with single origin and to help them improve or nail the "black" coffees. You have to ask the question - why are they doing that ? some baristas prefer working with flat blade over conical and some roasters prefer their coffees being extracted using large flat burr versus conical. the big challenge of course is that in the larger sized category, the conical format is dominant and you are limited for choice with flat blade. Conicals serve a purpose in a cafe implementation as they may have superior throughput or consistency under heavy loads due to the inherent design differences over planar burr - which is what a cafe environment is all about and remarkably different to a home situation preparing 1, 2 or 3 coffees at a time. grind retention afflicts everything, even the mythios to a lesser extent, unless they have vertically mounted burr sets or people take to the DIY improvements. Even when you think you have flushed aged retained grinds on many popular brand grinders, try opening up the top burr set and see what still remains. Purging via push is still perhaps the most viable method of dislodging potential stale grounds. Clumping is a key performance indicator for me personally and is perhaps the most underrated criteria most people apply to evaluating grinders. Sure, clumping has much to do with the state of the beans and grind setting, but channeling remains a serious epidemic for owners and users of the larger sized  conical on-demand grinders. I believe you can make fantastic coffees on every type of commercial grinders, including the M4D which I regard as a small commercial grinder. If you used a Kony E previously........then to me that is the benchmark grinder, so there is no material improvement or enhancement you can achieve......I have a few Kony E's myself and think they are great, but I also love the grind and cup from a large flat burr........  

Koffee_Kosmo

My 2 favorite grinders are Flat - Mazzer Major Conical - BNZ MD74 ( equal to a Robur but smaller footprint ) Note that these will have some retention but can be overcome with mods Both great grinders Pick one and you won't be disappointed Having said that The only two grinders that have tiny to nil retention are the Elektra Nino and the Versalab KK

FreshCoffee2

on 1456972350:

Lwowiak - my advice is to not get sucked into the hype.... ...Conicals serve a purpose in a cafe implementation as they may have superior throughput or consistency under heavy loads due to the inherent design differences over planar burr - which is what a cafe environment is all about and remarkably different to a home situation preparing 1, 2 or 3 coffees at a time.... ...Grind retention afflicts everything, even the mythios to a lesser extent, unless they have vertically mounted burr sets or people take to the DIY improvements.... ...I believe you can make fantastic coffees on every type of commercial grinders, including the M4D which I regard as a small commercial grinder. If you used a Kony E previously........then to me that is the benchmark grinder, so there is no material improvement or enhancement you can achieve......I have a few Kony E's myself and think they are great, but I also love the grind and cup from a large flat burr........

Excellent post (the quote) and if I may add just a little more. The ONLY reason....read ONLY...reason for using large conical burr grinders (in the range being discussed which is commercial / cafe range) is for the followIng. Large volume throughput. NO OTHER REASON: And it has become much more prevalent since the uptake of cafes using naked filters and therefore only getting one coffee out of each pour (because it cant be effectively split). Cafes that were using say for example 25 kilos a week, are suddenly using 50. That kind of turnover with the requisite finer grind settings required to get the particular result, through a FLAT plate grinders, causes overheating and the grinder stops in use, paralysing the business. \ Everyone doing that style of espresso is therefore up taking and changing over to LARGE conical grinders, because they keep on keeping on well after flats have overheated and stopped. Some of the available large burr conicals are NOT handling it and still overheat and stop, leaving only a small number of brand / models that can hack the pace in regard to the design spec. (for my money, only 3 perhaps 4). The fact that there may be small differences in the flavour profiles of same coffee ground through FLAT VS CONICAL grinders in side by side testing is totally irrelevant to the design spec, and will vary anyways due to the other equipment used, the technique of the operator, the capability of the individual palate, and indeed the "care factor" of any particular individual. Grind retention - grind pretension....the grinders are designed for continuous heavy duty cafe use not home use, so whatever will be will be  The rest is horse dung I am afraid, sent spinning round and round the world wide web by equipment-o-philes....which of course results in a lot more conical grinders going out into the market place to cafes that don't need them because they don't use enough coffee. This is nothing more than the "show" of coffee...cafe owners think that by showing off particular types and brands of equipment, that A) the coffee in the cup will be better and that the equipment on show will result in more legs walking through the door.  Both reasons are in the main, duds. The M4D is a capital small commercial grinder, but if you want to see what the difference on the palate means to you as an individual by all means go for it. Just take care to always run properly configured side by side testing rather than rely on your memory of what you think your old model grinder did in comparison to any new one, keeping in mind the excellent points on that made by Jeff above. Note of course,  that if you detect a difference, you then need to decide what that means. Does it mean one is "better" than the other....or just.....that there is a difference  Apologies for being right off topic. I cant make any suggestions because in terms of the design spec and intended use of these models, I don't believe in the relevance of their grind retention whatever that is for different models, so any suggestions I might make in terms of models, wont take that into consideration, and would only be mentioned in terms of their suitability in the cafe environment where a grinder must not overheat and stop. Hope that helps.

samuellaw178

Agreed with the above that both flat burrs and conical burrs can make equally good coffee. To me conical burrs bring a certain desirable quality/characteristic in the cup more consistently than a flat burrs could, and that's my final choice after going through many grinders (including a Mythos that most 'trendy' cafes seem to have now). Hype or not, I did the comparisons myself and believed I could taste it so it is real in my world. Whether it's psychological or not, I don't think it matters because it certainly makes my coffee-making/drinking more satisfying. As to grinder recommendation, you have many choices depending on your priority and budget. If you are not opposed to single dosing, you can have any dosered conical grinder (Mazzer Robur, Compak K10, BNZ conical etc etc). Expect to do some mods and spend some extra seconds brushing the grinder's throat each time. This is usually the most economical way to use a big conical grinder at home. If you are not opposed to single dosing and hand grinder, HG-1 and Pharos will work. Expect some work out though. If money is no object, there is the Elektra Nino that has little retention. But do expect to purge a little in the morning and in between grind adjustments. If convenience is important and budget is below 2k, there is no other way other than wasting a little(subjective) each time. There are quite a few doserless grinders such as Compak K10 fresh and the Mazzer Kony E you have tried.

Brett H

Excellent thread and excellent advice.  Yes my grinders yield different tastes side by side but to say one is better would depend on the day, the mood and the direction of the wind.  I do less adjustment between grinds using the big conical (but that is possibly because I use it most ie familiarity) and enjoy it's speed and quietness.  That said my most frequently used grinder is the Rocky I have at work.  With the Click-clack and switch mod it is easiest grinder to use and retains the least grinds of my collection.

FreshCoffee2

on 1457076808:

Agreed with the above that both flat burrs and conical burrs can make equally good coffee. To me conical burrs bring a certain desirable quality/characteristic in the cup more consistently than a flat burrs could, and that's my final choice after going through many grinders (including a Mythos that most 'trendy' cafes seem to have now). Hype or not, I did the comparisons myself and believed I could taste it so it is real in my world. Whether it's psychological or not, I don't think it matters because it certainly makes my coffee-making/drinking more satisfying... ...

Indeed Samuel but from your post I gather you are cupping and probably drinking mostly black coffee. For someone drinking black coffee a lot of the time that is one thing, but for most people in this market that are mostly drinking milk coffee my opinion is it doesnt make much difference what (good quality) grinder is used in a home use situation (ie flat vs conical) as long as the end result is eminently drinkable and pleasurable....ie made really well in whatever style is desired by the end drinker. And....in terms of the home use situation, individuals may just have a thing for using one particular model over another, because they just really like the modus operandi of the grinder, it feels great to use, they love the look, etc. etc. etc. You buy the BMW and I'll go the Merc. No problem. 

Lwowiak

Thanks to everyone for replying. All input is very welcome. I am not sold on the hype of conical being superior in taste, but must admit to tasting differences with a conical grinder. I have not been able to do a side by side comparison, so any perceptions, are not 100% accurate. I found that the Kony E was a great unit for a shop, but overkill for home. Having to purge so much coffee was a nuisance,and would detract from the usage of the unit. I am happy with the M4D, but am interested if the $1000 plus jump in price to a conical would be justified in the cup. Buying a second hand Conical, cheaply (sometimes if you are in the right place at the right time....) is always hard to resist. Anyway, please chime in with your thoughts.

samuellaw178

on 1457502757:

I am happy with the M4D, but am interested if the $1000 plus jump in price to a conical would be justified in the cup.

If you ask me if the cost jump is justified, I would answer 'no way!' without a milisecond of hesitation.  However, if you're seeking the very best and are trying push that limit closer to perfection in the cup(even if it's just in your mind), then probably yes and it depends on your value perception (and obviously for me it's a yes). But is it justified? Not at all! FC, you're right. For me short black all the way and anything else is a sin (except the wifey's daily FW of course).  ;D

FreshCoffee2

on 1457503895:

If you ask me if the cost jump is justified, I would answer 'no way!' without a milisecond of hesitation.  .......(but)...depends on your value perception (and obviously for me it's a yes). But is it justified? Not at all! ;D

Indeed. Lwowiak, I'll let you in on some insider stuff. My people *may* have some large conicals excess to requirements. They are of course as you would expect, quite tall (wont fit under std height kitchen cupboards...) and heavy. There are the usual types, automatic doser, and electronic programmable, used but in good usable / fully working condition (NOT obsolete/wrecked/on their last legs etc). These would normally go down the line into less busy cafes. The electronic programmables will be more exi than the doser types. My personal opinion is such that I dont bother taking something like this home, but if you want to satisfy your "itch".....let me know and I can flick them a note asking if they have any spare to sell and if so how much.

Lwowiak

Hi Fresh Coffee, thanks for the offer, I may take you up on it in the near future, but have a few priorities at the moment, that came with moving house.

ash

If you want a conical grinder for home, get a Pharos with the voodoodaddy mods, and attach a cordless drill to the top. Half the price of the big commercial conicals, and no grind retention.  :thumb: :coffee2:

askthecoffeeguy

I've  got a mazzer super jolly and a Sunbeam cafe series grinder at home and I'm pretty certain I can achieve comparable shot quality from both To me it's as much about quality control and technique as it is the equipment that you're using Admittedly if you're making more than one coffee at a time the Sunbeam begins to heat up quite quickly which has a discernable impact upon resulting flavour but I've made coffee for coffee geeks using both grinders and they've been unable to tell them apart I still advocate for choosing one variable at a time and then revolving around that until you get the best results, whether that be grind coarseness, dosage, tamp pressure, or whatever, but I'm pretty sure that each of these variables has easily as significant an impact as the equipment that you're using P

Dry_bean.

on 1459299369:

I've  got a mazzer super jolly and a Sunbeam cafe series grinder at home and I'm pretty certain I can achieve comparable shot quality from both To me it's as much about quality control and technique as it is the equipment that you're using Admittedly if you're making more than one coffee at a time the Sunbeam begins to heat up quite quickly which has a discernable impact upon resulting flavour but I've made coffee for coffee geeks using both grinders and they've been unable to tell them apart I still advocate for choosing one variable at a time and then revolving around that until you get the best results, whether that be grind coarseness, dosage, tamp pressure, or whatever, but I'm pretty sure that each of these variables has easily as significant an impact as the equipment that you're using P

Have to agree, a lot of black magic attributed to grinders, I've got a Mazzer Mini (certainly not flavour of the month right now) however would back my results against most of the coffee establishments we visit, it's a great grinder, does what its meant to do without over heating the ground coffee it produces.

Brett H

I've had and have a number of grinders and have been known to purchase the odd small domestic to play with before reselling (at a loss but never a huge one and compared to my lapidary hobby is good bang for buck satisfaction-wise).  You are correct in that the difference between the grinders is pretty hard to discern when the elements are synchronous.  My only anecdotal inference is that the commercials retain more grinds unless you modify and they require less adjusting day to day and blend to blend.  Are they better?  Yes!!  Of course they are; BUT, are they better for your situation (bench space, ability, preferred preparation, adapting to idiosyncratic modifications for best outcome, etc.)?!?!

FreshCoffee2

on 1459299369:

...............I'm pretty certain I can achieve comparable shot quality from both ...To me it's as much about quality control and technique as it is the equipment that you're using Admittedly if you're making more than one coffee at a time the Sunbeam begins to heat up quite quickly which has a discernable impact upon resulting flavour but I've made coffee for coffee geeks using both grinders and they've been unable to tell them apart I still advocate for choosing one variable at a time and then revolving around that until you get the best results, whether that be grind coarseness, dosage, tamp pressure, or whatever, but I'm pretty sure that each of these variables has easily as significant an impact as the equipment that you're using

Got it on one P. But the really telling comment is the one that I took the liberty of bolding and italicising. Blind cupping fellas blind cupping, it gets everyone every time. Once you remove the influence of throughput and therefore any possibility of heating up due to friction, as does not exist in a home use situation,  and then add in the realistic (in this country) idea that milk coffee is what most people will brew and consume, the actual technical discussion is pretty limited IF those sitting around the table (of knowledge) are prepared to accept the reality created by blind comparisons conducted well by those who can (ie by eliminating the bool scheet part of this). That leaves the realism of individual taste. Someone likes a conical grinder...because he just does./ Someone else likes a flat grindr for the same reason, someone else likes a 35 kilo elephant sitting in the kitchen with which to make 2 cuppas in the morning, and someone else is happy with a more realistic piece of kit for the volume of his use. Someone is prepared to spend the cost of building a luxury 100 meter yacht on their coffee grinder, and someone else isnt.  Whatever floats their boat. Just that the justification should not include BS, which is really, really offensive. That's my only criterion....please...no BS  ...it is driving the coffee and equipment industries around the twist in the race for all and sundry roasters and equipment traders to wrestle market share off their competitors to build their own businesses.

Koffee_Kosmo

I am in the elephant on the bench camp - and proud of it  :angel: KK

bcspark

on 1459344353:

I am in the elephant on the bench camp - and proud of it  :angel: KK

So am I and as happy as  :coffee2:

askthecoffeeguy

Also in a commercial setting have to say that I far prefer a doser to a doserless grinder for ease of use Yes doserless ensures 'fresh' coffee every  time, but I find them slow and cumbersome when it's busy. A skilled operator ought to be able to dose as much coffee as they need for the number of coffees that they're making without wastage - but I stress that this is personal preference only AND I actually prefer the flavour profile of flat over conical burrs but don't ask me to explain as I have no idea why - if I had to guess I'd say it gives a more rounded mid palate with less definition (than conical) but more 'flavour' Again like totes whatever's P