ROBUSTA&illi

over_extracted

Well last week i opened a can of illi coffee and me being the curious one started to have a close look at the coffee beans and shock ,horror :o :o :o there was robusta in there,shame on you ILLI shame on you.

FreshCoffee2

Dear Over Extracted, I dont know about that brand's claims, however I have been known to open some well known other brands packs where it is CLEARLY STATED that the contents are 100% arabica, and hey presto...somebody on the production line must have been having a bad hair day because as with your experience, there was lots of robusta in the bag! But hang on a sec...arabica...robusta...whatever. All the usual variables aside, DOES IT TASTE GOOD???? I have been in the situation to conduct blind tastings with prospective clients who came in to see what was offering on the equipment side, but who claimed to want to drink certain "labels" once their businesses opened. So on went the blind tastings. Well known brands in their sealed containers were purchased and randomly placed among fresh roasted blends supplied locally. All were taken from their packaging and placed in plain bags and assigned code numbers. The prospective clients were allowed to make the coffees...all was done professionally and consistently (oops there goes that word again) in order to avoid bias. Blind tastings...they tell you the truth about the flavour (or should that read "the quality").

over_extracted

Dear fresh coffee  iam glad that is not only me that can see these things happen in our industry ,had to read the label to see if i had made the mistake but it did say 100% arabica ::). Not only that but there were at least 15% broken beans with some burnt ones to compliment the blend and this comes from a factory where somebody wrote a coffee book,i wonder what sort of advice you get in this book.eg(start with only the best 100% arabica coffee blend....) :P see ya OE

FreshCoffee2

Dear Over Extracted, the insidious thing is, that the "marketing and hype machine" driving the coffee industry tells us / convinces us what great things "labels" are... How many people are drinking "labels" that contain copious quantities of old, low grade coffee (to the point it can be smelled and tasted), but are convinced this is how it should be, and that it is good because this is what they have been told? They'll even pay a premium for it because they have been convinced it is so good! So we have many situations where you pay (much) more money for low grade products with a name, than you do for many really good coffees roasted and blended FRESH locally. Lots of people say they are interested in coffee or that coffee is great and they cant do without it. Those who are GENUINELY interested night think about finding some fresh high quality coffee to try, and instead of saying it is "no good" because it is totally different to the label they had previously been drinkiing, appreciate it for what it is. The wine industry has progressed to this point over a period of years. It is acceptable to say that a chardonnay from one supplier from one region is totally different from one from another region, but that they are both good as they both exemplify the different characters imparted by the nature of their different origins. In comparison the local coffee industry appears to be a long way behind, and certainly is not being assisted by the marketing and hype machines paid for by overseas brand names. Why would it?

over_extracted

They make money and saturate our market with bad coffee,yes the power of labels is really strong and people fall for $40-$50 dollars a kilo blend we need to educate people more and pass the message to customers as to whats right and wrong,right now iam going to get another one of those super coffee blends and stay tune for more news.se ya OE :P

lars

Personally I think Illy is crap - can't believe that they charge twice as much for it as anything else.  All part of the myth I guess... Have heard that the distribution agency for it might be up for grabs - can anyone confirm? -L

over_extracted

Thanks for your interest in this thread Lars ,i dont know what the hipe is about illi is.

Gonzo

Lars, if the Australian import agency for this brand is up for grabs then I wouldn't be surprised...if you know the current importer, you will know what I mean. The marketing/pricing con surrounding this brand is mind boggling and anyone hoodwinked into believing that an imported roasted coffee is "worth" the price paid, or believing that the brand thus marketed does something for you that other brands cant do (other than re-distribute your own hard earned income into someone elses pocket) should think again...clearly this time. I particularly like the con where you have to be approved to purchase in a given territory lest you be too close to someone else also handling the brand, and I also like the bit where if you want a delivery, you pay C before D....no accounts. There must be some pretty powerful marketing in there to successfully turn the tables on normally quite assertive cafe owners who would not give an inch to any of their suppliers. Exclusivity gone mad. G.

21_Grams

Guys, I really think you are going a bit ahead of yourselves. Illy, though I am not their biggest fan, do only use arabica.  The Illy brothers are much respected businessmen and have done a lot for the industry re. research and development of the science of coffee and packaging.  They are staunch believers in arabica coffee and I seriously doubt they would put their huge reputation on the line by sneaking in robusta.   Get real guys.  Take that robusta bean back to the lab and have them re-examine their results.  Some peaberries and other small arabican beans can often resemble robusta.  I think more respect should be given to the Illy brothers.  Yes, the company over here in Australia is being run by some very rude and arrogant people, but that is just the management here in this small slice of the international espresso market.  The brothers should be made aware of just how awfully their company is being represented here.  I am sure they'd be shocked. But as far as our fingerpointing goes with the robusta bean found in thier arabica coffee, we are making ourselves look like amature tall poppy haters.

Gonzo

Hi there 21, I think you may be being a little harsh on us, and a little too defensive on the side of Illy. Lots of people think arabica is good, Illy hasn't cornered the market on that. And yes they really have gone to town on coffee research... However I think you need to look further into OE's topic about robusta than at first meets the eye. And if you read all the replies you will find someone made a general reference something to the fact that who cares what's in the coffee as long as it tastes good. That's not a bad observation is it? And I might add that if I had paid the equivalent of around 50 Ausie big ones / kilo for a 250 gram can of arabica based espresso blend I wouldn't really like to find anything in there that doesnt look like it should be there. My understanding (in general terms) is that you pay Illy big bucks for their coffee because its arabica and because of all the research and development that's gone into the packaging side of things, that is to try and circumvent the effects of the passage of time and prolonged storage on the coffee due to the economies of scale of delivery and sale to all and sundry markets, some of them far away foreign countries. That is, to try and circumvent the effect of staling. So what are we paying for, the coffee contained or the R & D to try and stop the coffee from ageing over time? They are then setting themselves up for just this kind of discussion if there is any indication that the stuff might not be up to scratch when it reaches its intended clientelle. I honestly dont believe this has anything to do with "respect" or "tall poppy syndrome" or anything of the sort. G.

Unknown

WHY NOT ROAST YOUR OWN,I THINK THE FUTURE WILL SEE CAFE`S AND COFFEE SHOPS ROASTING THEIR OWN COFFEE ON THE PREMISES. THIS WAY YOU HAVE THE FRESHEST COFFEE AND YOU HAVE CONTROL AS TO WHAT YOU USE.YOU CAN ALSO SELL THE BEANS TO ALL THOSE OWNERS OF ESPRESSO MACHINES THAT ARE SELLING BY THE TRUCK LOAD. You can buy a 2 KG SHOP ROASTER for as little as $8000 with training provided. and green beans for $3.00 so not only do you have control you also have the profit.

Gonzo

Well maybe, but the idea behind this (atleast under this topic of discussion) would have us convinced that you cant buy decent fresh roasted good quality coffee and therefore have to go out and do it yourself. And this is simply not true, because you CAN buy decent fresh roasted good quality coffee, and as long as you then do it justice when handling it through the brewing equipment, there is no problem. Are clients going to frequent your cafe because it is in a particular location and offers good  food, coffee, atmosphere and the staff are attentive, friendly and professional, or are they going to frequent your cafe just because you are now roasting your own? Is the shop roaster really just a gimmick that you hope will encourage greater patronage? G.

fad

WHY NOT ROAST YOUR OWN,I THINK THE FUTURE WILL SEE CAFE`S AND COFFEE SHOPS ROASTING THEIR OWN COFFEE ON THE PREMISES. THIS WAY YOU HAVE THE FRESHEST COFFEE AND YOU HAVE CONTROL AS TO WHAT YOU USE.YOU CAN ALSO SELL THE BEANS TO ALL THOSE OWNERS OF ESPRESSO MACHINES THAT ARE SELLING BY THE TRUCK LOAD. You can buy a 2 KG SHOP ROASTER for as little as $8000 with training provided. and green beans for $3.00 so not only do you have control you also have the profit.

Roasting coffee in-house seems attractive, but has a couple of drawbacks: - it takes time - you need to know how to roast - you need to kow what you're after in a blend Say you get that 2kg shop roaster and start roasting. If you fill it right up with 2kg chances are the roasts will take too long, so you roast 1-1.5kg at a time. Each roast will take approx 20 minutes and result in around 800g-1.3kg of roasted coffee. How many kilos will a cafe go through in a week? If they're only doing 10kg that's over 7 hours roasting per week. In other words, say goodbye to your Sunday off. All of that assumes the person knows how to roast. Very few people do, and fewer still have experience with multi-kilo roasters. Roasting is not a set-and-forget operation, it's a skill, very much like being a chef. Gaining the experience needed is going to take effort and time that cafe owners often don't have. What beans and roast levels are they going to use for their blends? I know of blends that have 5 beans in them, and I've heard of 9+ bean blends. Very few, if any, roasting companies give out blend information, so the cafe roaster might have to resort to trial-and-error. $3/kg? You might get Brazilian and Columbians for that but if you want an interesting blend you'll need more exotic beans that can cost upwards of $6+ per kg. And that's if you buy it in 60kg bag lots. The cafe's going to have to pay for, and store, several hundred kilos of coffee in order to get those prices. Try buying green by the kilo and the price goes up to $10/kg or more. If a cafe can install a roaster and do it properly then I'm all for it. But if they're just looking at it as a way to save some money I'd say it's a recipe for a lot of bad coffee. Instead of more cafe's buying roasters I'd be happy if they just learned to grind coffee freshly per shot.. Cheers Paul

FreshCoffee2

Well Said ( written?). FC.

diplomat

How about the local roasters who claim to roast for each customer?  (I wont mention names).  That is really exclusivity gone mad! Every person who sells coffee should select the right supplier for their outlet, if their coffee is good and their getting the right $$$, who are all of you to say that to have a brand is wrong. Wake up and smell/taste the coffee, you guys behave as if youre working for greenpeace!

30sec_pour

First things first, the so-called devil inside (robusta) isn't as bad as the marketing machine has claimed it to be. In fact good quality robusta added in the right ratio actually can add to a coffee blend especially when it comes to crema and caffeine levels. A fact LavAzza has known for years with a lot of their blends. I think LavAzza has certainly been around long enough to know. I also must agree with fad on the issue of cafe owners roasting their own. I've been to a couple of cafes now that do it. One in particular gets sent pre-blended green beans a blend of which the original roasting company makes into quite a nice blend only to have the cafe owner to turn them into a very rough blend. What an injustice both to the beans and the original roaster whose good name is being brought down. 30sec_pour

Gonzo

Not so fast 30 sec_pour, whilst you are right in that robusta isn't as bad as the marketing machine wants the public to believe, it doesn't follow that just because LaVazza has been using it for years that this means it's best practice to do so... The types of Robusta used in their coffee blends, OR the amounts/quantities of robusta used in their coffee blends, by LaVazza, actually result in the flavour of that robusta permeating strongly through the resultant brews. Some of their blends are mostly robusta. Using Robusta (or anything) to enhance a blend in some way, means using it judiciously, not in a way to overpower the blend. If you are used to drinking "good"" coffee, but drink one of these blends for a change, no matter how well brewed it may be, it will leave you with an extremely unpleasant taste in your mouth and possibly a racey heartbeat from the caffeine overkill. In it's own country of origin this brand certainly does have great market penetration but that does not mean it is seen as anything other than a "supermarket" brand. Just because LaVazza does something, does not necessarily mean it's a good thing to do from best quality point of view. G.

30sec_pour

Gonza, Firstly let me say that I see how hard it would be for local roasters to indorse robusta let alone a coffee that is roasted outside of Oz. I mean freshness is their biggest marketing tool. But tasting the LavAzza whole bean blends imported into Oz of which this is the tip of a even larger range supplied in Italy you can see why they have market dominance in Italy. Of these whole bean blends I haven't experienced the overwhelming Robusta flavours you talk of due to the fact they are only used in such small ratios. Also in regards to your comments on Caffeine, you make it sound like Caffeine is a bad thing?? It certainly wasn't my intension to come off sounding like a LavAzza Rep because I think the Local Australian Coffee roasters are coming out with some great coffee blends of which I drink regularly. In saying that though I think they need to be open to new ideas and robusta (in small qualities) maybe a good idea. Don't have blinkers on to the world. Just because someone says it or writes it doesn't automatically make it so. Try it for yourself!! 30sec_pour

FreshCoffee2

I'll be happy to answer this as it is a subject near and dear to all coffee roasters claiming to seek and purvey excellence. Your viewpoint on the use of robusta as a major part of a blend (as most Italian roasters do) is flawed from the outset. This is because you will not find any robustas palatable enough to do this with...end of story. The **best** that any robusta can hope to be, is to be as ***NEUTRAL*** as possible because as a general rule it results in wet coffee that is nothing more than woody and very flat indeed with no discernable aroma. It has a strange "woody smell", but not the kind of AROMA displayed by good quality high grown arabicas. The nastier robustas are simply undrinkable by anyone used to drinking any half reasonable arabica. Robustas are generally very high in oil content and caffeine therefore result in a kind of "thick" brew. This certainly may be one reason for adding small amounts of robusta to enhance "Italian style" espresso blends (i.e. to add body) but for the rest of it they may be nothing more than a cheap (to use instead of better quality input in a blend) "filler". If you use good grade arabicas and are proud of it, you dont need to use a filler. Beware my ever present lamet about the "marketing machines" of large roasters. Very often you will find that the blends  they pitch into the higher price backets are the ones containing the cheapest ingredients... FRESHNESS to coffee, is like LOCATION is to real estate. It is not a marketing tool, it is a basic, indesputable fact. Would you in Australia buy a loaf of bread baked in Italy and exported to Australia?...Because coffee is not much different. It takes around 7  weeks for the ship to land in port in Oz from Italy. By that stage it's stale stale stale irrespective of the most common forms of packaging used, and the question of packaging is a separate issue on which I can also devote copious quantities of typing... Market dominance by incredibly large companies is related to lots of factors, usuallly none of them having anything to do with ***excellence*** in the product. Caffeine CAN be an EXTREMELY BAD thing. This really IS a subject close to my heart. I live most of my life in the building where we ROAST, blend, package and distribute fresh roasted coffee. I limit myself to very few cups of coffee per day for pleasure, and professionally, sip and spit. A couple of times a year I have to abstain from coffee for a couple of weeks at a time and wean my system off coffee otherwise I suffer the uncontrollable effects of caffeine overdose. This is not pleasant. I know other roasters who after years in the business suffer similar symptoms, and due to the great amount of dust that comes from handling raw coffee (also over a prolonged period) suffer from respiratory complaints or in extreme cases seem to become allergic to coffee. So... Yes caffeine CAN be an EXTREMELY BAD thing, and until you have suffered real caffeine overdose effects you may not understand. Those who brag about caffeine addictions or the craving for caffeine, or their need for "strong" coffee generally do not have much experience. I crave **smooth** full bodied coffee and I can happily do without most of the caffeine once someone comes up with a decaffeinated coffee that doesn't taste or feel any different to the real mccoy (ok so I know I'm living in a fools paradise on this one). I agree with you that   "......I think the Local Australian Coffee roasters are coming out with some great coffee blends of which I drink regularly. In saying that though I think they need to be open to new ideas and robusta (in small qualities) maybe a good idea........" This is ofcourse subject to the type of blend desired. On the topic of using robusta as a major portion of a blend...ask yourself why Italians put as much sugar (by volume) into their ristretto as the volume of liquid...it's because the coffee is undrinkable without the masking effect of the sugar. Cheers, FC.

admin

Thought it worth reviving this in the light of the recent discussion on pods - so we've had questions on Illy with respect to robusta content, and now a question about whether Illy is (by definition) fresh. So what is it that justifies Illy's price premium in the Australian marketplace? -A

lars

Hi guys - was in the city [Sydney] on Saturday and went into a shiny new cafe at the bottom of Gov. Macquarie Tower on Bent St. Apparently it's a new concept store for Illy - i didn't notice at first and asked the name of the place and the guy (a bit like the dweeb in the Starbucks Flash movie that Patrick posted in Fun Stuff) told me it was the Illy cafe, as if everyone who was anyone would know...anyway, tried the coffee and to be honest, it was nothing special. I noticed that one of these new Illy 'concept' stores had just opened in Adelaide about this time last year. Wondered if anyone had noticed them opening in any other states? Lars

Unknown

went to the sydney and adelaide so called illy stores. adelaide nice.   not hard in adelaide though as it lacks many good coffee stores in relation to melbourne etc. sydney very average coffee.    i have a home machine and I kill them both like all forum readers here would also. my friend who has no machine and an average drinker thought the sydney coffee was nothing special either. you cant beat fresh roasted beans.   END OF STORY" shipping from europe roasted, never quite as good. as for illy deciding if your right for their beans, paying up front , too close to other stores.  what a loat of marketing wanking crap. I would tell the rep to hop back into his car.   YOU get no more customers coming to your cafe for illy beans,             no more than you can pick up pushing another cheaper brand. their are loads off other importers roasters with a better product dying to service your cafe.  vittoria, etc to name but one but the list is long.   they will supply machines and training and are nice to deal with. tell illy to take a hike.,  overpriced w.....s. I used to have a large cafe and they tried their overpriced exclusive sell on me and I laughed at their sales pitch. the sydney store is living in noddy land.  high rent, expensive beans, they better stay busy or they will not have much change to bank. nice containers for the beans though, looks good, but not as good as your local roaster.  the cans dont make coffee worth sometimes double price. cheers coffee for all

Reschsmooth

On the issue of Illy - I recently received a can of ground illy (with some cups I bought from an overseas source), so, given delivery, the coffee was at least 3 weeks old before I received it (I have no idea how old it was before it was sent). Then, due to failure at trying to swap the unopened tin of ground for beans, I decided to open it on the weekend (a further 2 weeks after delivery). Whilst there was quite a nice undertone of coffee, there was a strong hint of 'staleness'. This will probably make no sense, but the coffee tasted 'dusty'. I thought the packaging ensured fresh coffee! The coffee I roasted the week before (albeit too dark, thanks to 35' heat) was significantly better. Just my 2 beans worth P

admin

topic refreshed for discussion. cheers Admin