true barbarians

admin

This thread was originally set up for general comment about politics, or anything else.

Am going to take advantage of it for myself.  I have been as suspicious of the US's motive's for going to war in Iraq as anyone, and opposed to the apparent prisoner abuses by US prison guards.

However, I have been shocked by the decapitation of the innocent American civilian and it's public broadcast on the internet - it shows who are the true barbarians.  Any comments?

Admin

Reschsmooth

Not sure if I should really be commenting but: This is something I wrote in March 2003 for one of the Sydney papers: I have never been convinced on the validity of the US leading a non-UN sanctioned invasion of another sovereignty. This is not because I believe that Saddam Hussein should remain in power, but I can not accept that the historical actions of the US administration in particular allow them the moral high ground. The US justifications of this action have been like the proverbial shifting sands. Firstly, we had WMD. On this basis, the US Administration, CIA, and defense departments continually confounded inspection efforts, sought to have UNSCOM removed from Baghdad, sought to prevent UNMOVIC from commencing inspections and have sought to make requirements under the resolutions almost impossible to meet. Furthermore, disarmament did not work in the first gulf war. And, any Iraq regime will need to maintain WMD

admin

Hi Patrick - great to get a response, thanks. Any one else who has a view is welcome to join the discussion! Cheers Admin

john

Admin Due to the lack of responce, this is obviously a touchy subject. It is hard to know what is fact or fiction with the news that is coming out from over there. My gut reaction is that we have another VIETNAM on our door steps. Billions upon billions of bucks going up in smoke that should be spent on the needy. Spielberg could not have asked for a better script. JD

admin

Hi John - thanks for your note - in fact I'm very interested to know to what degree people are interested in discussing other 'off topic' stuff.  Not sure whether it's because this one's such a sensitive subject, or whether people really would rather stick to coffee-related subject matter.. Thanks however for your thoughts... ciao -A

pab

Is it really as barabric as the images of abused and humiliated Iraqis? It is a tough one to call. It is in a way Vietnam all over again - only with a shitty soundtrack. It is again the US trying to kill what they have created i.e. Ho Chi Mingh, Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein. Extreme fundamentalists made great by the US. The US even thought of siding themselves with Hitler if they though Nazi Germany would win. The unfortunate thing is, as in Vietnam, the US play behind this false sense of security called the Rules of Engagement. Which ties one hand behind there back. Therefore, when things start to get tight, stressed and out of control, those that make that make the rules have no choice but to break the rules. If Iraq, and to a greater extent, the enitre Middle East were barren of oil, would we really care what happens there? My answer is no, otherwise we as the free West would have stepped in a far greater capacity in the Blakans, Chechnya etc. What I have found more funny and all too predictable is David Hicks' lawyer. As soon as the abuse bandwagon reached fever pitch he stepped in stating that Hicks has also been abused. This claim was resoundly dismissed by Australian ambassadors after meeting with Hicks... he wanted to know how the Adelaide Crows were going. Unfortunately the mass globilisation of our world is a double edge sword. Globilisation has it's pros and cons... I think the cons are winning.

Reschsmooth

It's not so much a touchy subject (well kinda shouldn't be) John, but the problem is, we the proletariat are force fed significant amounts of government endorsed rhetoric, and have to sift through this media to try to find the truth. The problem therein is many fold: 1. Both sides (the 'looney left' and the 'raving right') are generally quite extreme and will take or manufacture 'facts' to suit their agenda - Michael Moore, John Pilger, Gerard Henderson, Miranda 'Feminism is no longer cool' Divine, etc are good examples); 2. The media, similarly, is either in the pocket of the government (just think of our good mate Rupert) or is vehemently against if (think of the ABC), thus distorting the truth. Embedded journo's are a great example; 3. Most western governments are tooooooo closely in bed with the corporates - have a read of Michael Moore's book 'Stupid White Men' (I think it's the one, but I forget as my brother still has my copy - Pab!!!!!!!!) and he details all the corporate connections the powers that be in the fraudulant US government have; 4. The issue regarding globalisation is extremely complex and has to be taken in context. We, being fortunate enough to be able to or allowed to complain about our coffee, can see globalisation is largely a good thing, but the Indonesian who is unable to afford clean drinking water thanks to the IMF bailout following hedge fund attacks on their currency, will only see the bad side of it. We are lucky in that we can protest the wrongs of our governments, etc, but many can't. They are the ones adversely affected by globalisation. But, I digress.......perhaps we can leave it all for someone else to fix. cheers Patrick

lars

Since I arrived in this country around 10 years ago, there's one thing that's amazed me - the fact that security guards here carry guns. I'm bringing this up because of the report from yesterday about a woman security guard who was robbed, then followed the robber to his car and shot him. I'm not sure what gives them the right to carry guns - they're not police officers and I'm not even sure how strict the licencing is for them. But this to me points up how scary this is...obviously we don't know the exact facts, but it seems like this woman was pretty mad (as you would be after being hit over the head and robbed!) but what came next seems amazing - she apparently just decided to go up to his car and shoot the guy in the head. Apart from the US, I don't know any other country where people (ie not law officials) are allowed to walk around with guns like this - would be interested to know what anyone else thinks about this situation, or if anyone knows what the laws regulating security guards are. -L

pab

The whole problem with this issue is that the media (especially the "current" affairs programs) have latched onto this and will no doubt spin the emotional side whilst ignoring the factual legal side. At least there's one less crim on the streets. With that said, we cannot truly comment on whether she did the right thing or not unless we ourselves have been put in that position. Maybe they'll use the whole head tramua theory like the spinless NRL to excuse her. At least there is some good news re the legal system - firstly the policeman being exhonorated from charges when he shot at a criminal. And now today a few multimillion dollar payouts to morons who've injured themselves via their own stupidity have been reversed.

admin

Hi Guys - great to see that this politics/current affairs thread is getting some use. While we're on the subject (of politics)...don't know if anyone else has been as mortified as I have by John Howard's hypocrisy on the refugee situation over the last couple of years.  Phillip Adams, writing in The Australian Magazine last weekend summed the plight of the regufees quite well when he said: "Before our little Caesar (Howard) declared war on Iraq and Afghanistan, he took us to war against poor wretches fleeing Saddam and the Taliban. In case anyone's interested, there's a website for concerned Australians: www.ajustaustralia.com. Ciao, Admin

Reschsmooth

I don't really know enough about the refugee issue to comment, but in terms of the poor crim that was shot, and whilst I don't have the complete actual and legal facts of the situation, my view on criminals changed a number of years ago. The situation, compared to many is, I realise very trivial, but it struck home the issue about crime. (I doubt I will be able to put the situation in proper context, particularly in terms of how I want to put it, but bear/bare with me) My car was stolen from a train station car park about 7 years ago, and I was not too upset because it was insured and had a number of problems (no, it wasn't an insurance job). I figured that it had been stolen for parts or complete resale or something 'commercial' (ie. they tried to make money out of it, as illegal as it was). I subsequently found out that the pieces of s$#t went for a joy ride, trashing mine and other cars in the process before it was abandoned and torched. Apparently it was then restolen and torched again. This angered me and changed my attitude to the worthless sons of motherless goats. I now have absolutely no respect for people who commit a crime out of pure disrespect for others. It is like those little preppy eastern suburbs idiots/students a couple of years ago who trashed parts of Bondi (or where ever) because they were drunk, probably realised that ma and pa trust fund would cover any fines, and thought it was cool. My view, all else being equal, was that these kids should not have been allowed to sit their HSC that year, be personally liable for any damage (via community service or pecuniary penalties) or some other penalty that hits home to these idiots. Again, the kid who was caught starting one of the devastating fires around Sydney a couple of years ago. His father claimed he was 'just in the wrong crowd' and was pressured. Rubbish! He would have known what he was doing. Again, on 60 minutes a few weeks ago, this bleeding heart mother had a son who died in a high speed police chase after he stole or was accessory to the theft of a car. She was blaming the police for not letting him go, thus avoiding the fatal accident. My reactions were 'boo-hoo'. He was the one at fault, he deserved to cop some kind of recourse. I am not saying that all these people deserve death as a result of their actions, but why should we as a society, have to live in paranoia not only about someone breaking in, car-hijacking, being raped, or whatever and THEN be concerned about the potential outcomes if we somehow defend ourselves. Another example, the publican who bashed a kid as he broke into his residence (above the hotel), and was successfully sued AND had to pay the kid's trailer trash mother for her anxiety of seeing her evil sporn lying in hospital with bruises and what have you. I know there are often extenuating circumstances, and it is wrong to take a wholesale view on these issues, but I am just plain sick of the apparent leniency given to crims, in too many cases, ahead of the victim. And I say this, touching lots of wood, as a person who has been relatively lucky in terms of being a victim of anything. As you can tell, it is something I feel [irrationally] strongly about. That's my two cents. Cheers P

lars

Hi Patrick - sounds like you and Alan Jones are of one mind on this one...not to say I'm a bleeding heart liberal, and I like most of us, have felt times when it would have been nice to have a gun in my hand (a time when I was beaten up by a gang of drunken thugs in London springs to mind).  However I would suggest there's a difference between that and going up to a car and coolly killing someone seated in the driver's seat, with a shot to the head. However, I would be interested to know if anyone knows what sort of screening these security guards go through before they get given their guns. Some of them to me seem little better than thugs (I understand many are ex-criminals) - that's the bigger question. -L

Reschsmooth

I assume we are talking about the same screening process that was used for the security guard that hit David Hookes? It is very much an emotive, personal, often irrational debate, one which we should not let degenerate into a SMH style Forum. Also - I would prefer not to be positively compared to Alan Jones   ;D The guy is a complete loon and should NOT be allowed on public airwaves, particularly to provide financially endorsed 'opinions'. P