Is Melbourne espresso crap?

admin

Am putting up a post from an e-mail sent by a Melbourne reader who claims the espresso in his local cafe is decidedly average. He says:

"I purchase my espresso there every day, only because it is the only drinkable espresso in the street, but i must say, that i am able to produce an espresso from my domestic machine that would be much better that 98% of all Melbourne caffes. They under extract the coffee"...

He goes on to say:

"this country has a lot to learn about espresso, and the first step is to discard the idea that consumers are being ripped off because their espresso cup is not full to the brim"

Would be interested in views from other forum members.

Admin

Espresso_Amore

Hiya, just thought i would put in my 2cents worth here. I have to disagree & also agree with the Melbourne chap who gets bad espresso's. I have been to melbourne once in my lifetime,Unfortunately, but i quite injoyed the epresso's i had, mostly in chapel st. But with regards to his comments on this country having to learn alot about getting ripped off with our espresso's, I couldnt agree more with him, most of theses so called coffee lovers who go out and have a coffee regularly say they enjoy their coffee in BLOODY fishbowls, if they were to order coffee in Italy they would get laughed at. Anyway thats my 2cents worth, u dont have to agree with me,which im sure some wont, lol. Anyhow Brisbane has a lot to learn about the way they make espresso's, i can tell u that much. Ciao Espresso Amore... Italian Coffee Importer.

mimmo124

"this country has a lot to learn about espresso, and the first step is to discard the idea that consumers are being ripped off because their espresso cup is not full to the brim" I was working last weekend when this so called expert started getting angry at me. The guy was italian i think, which is no problem as so am i. He was convinved i was trying to decieve him by giving him a "Short Black" the way it is offered in every cafe i have ever been in, and they way i was taught to make it. Instead of politely saying, excuse me i actually prefer my espresso to be a full cup, he started going off and saying,"I am European, you are trying to tell ME how coffee is supposed to be served!!!","I know how it should be served i am from Europe" and so the conversation went on. After blasting me and then the manager, who then got angry with me too, i then made him a cup of burned overextracted dishwater, to which he replied, "Beautiful, now thats how a coffee should be!!". :-/ Anyway that is the sort of people i have to put up with, "Europeans", who have been in Australia longer than they have been in Europe. Cheers and see ya later Mimmo

ristretto

Mimmo, There will always be customers with their own views on what the perfect coffee is. The reason there are so many differing views is because cafe's have been producing such bad espresso for such a long time.  If cafes had been producing great espresso then customers would know what to expect and the bad ones would not be tolerated.   When training new staff I always use this analogy:   If you drank cask wine all of your life and someone gave you a Grange Hermitage you would not appreciate its balance, flavour etc, in fact you would probably dislike it.  The sames goes for espresso.   The answer: the passionate baristas, cafe owners and the coffee companies (who should take much of the repsonsibility) need to educate consumers about good espresso. Ristretto  8)

Unknown

You are exactly right, everyone does have their own perception of how coffee should be/taste. Its just a matter of me adjusting my aditude to accept this, which is hard, because i have great difficulty in sending out a sub standard(my standards that is) coffee. Its a problem i know, but it has helped my to learn how to make good coffee fast. I was recently reading in the weekend paper about a new cafe that just opened up over here in Perth. It is called Soto, and they apparently roast all thier beans daily, and setting out to educate the public on what real espresso should be like. They are also about quality rather than quantity. I am thinking of going past there and sampling their coffee, and even maybey asking them for some casual work if they would like to offer it This is the sort of cafe i aspire to have when i am older, i just hope peoples tastes have changed by that time, because frankly i dont believe at this point at time there is a market in Perth for excellent espresso, because it only appears that "Baristas" know what good coffee should be like, and the general public have a lot to learn. regards Domenic

Unknown

As a visitor to Melbourne's top espresso bars and cafe's I was disapointed to recieve espresso's that was between 35 and 45mls and pouring quickly from the spouts, essentially under extracting the coffee, leaving a weak, watery brew. Extraction of this method may deliver a pleasant aromatic profile dependent on the coffee, though will ultimatley leave caramelised sugars and soluble solids undeveloped. Who installed this fear of over extraction into the minds of melbourne coffee proffessionals, it has some what rebounded.

ristretto

Black_cherry, An interesting view I have not heard before, are you sure you do not mean over extracted. Unless you are drinking doubles 45ml is way too much and is clearly over extracted.   If the brew is watery it is because all of the good things relating to the primary extraction (where all of the volatile oils and delicious flavours are containted) have come and gone.  What you are tasting is highly astringent, harsh tasting and caffeinated secondary extraction.   Yours in slight bemusement, Ristretto  8)

Unknown

Ristretto In principle extraction relates to what is taken from the coffee grounds during the percolation process. If you read correctly you would see that underextraction refers to the underdevelopement of the primary elements of espresso, soluble solids, caramelised sugars and CO2 which form the matrix for espresso to exist within. If physically H20 under pressure is percolating through resistance [ volume of grounds + particle size + compact, firm, even pressure ] that does not extract these components completely to achieve a balanced, full bodied, aromatic cup then one might assume that under extraction exists. Though in the same moment may be overextracted because of the greater volume in the cup, which I see is the way you have misconstrued and misunderstood what I originally stated. Suggest you do some further research and experiments on the physics and chemistry of espresso, so that you might have something worthwhile to say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Book 1

ristretto

Dr Illy, sorry I meant black cherry, Thanks for the lesson in espresso 101.

admin

Hi guys - this has got pretty technical - I guess my question is does anyone notice any difference in espresso between Sydney & Melbourne, and the way it is prepared? Ciao Admin

Unknown

In response to "Admin" regarding Espresso coffee Melbourne Verses Sydney. Living and working in Melbourne and touring the cafe scene, I do have a problem with the volumes of coffee extracted generally in Melbourne. We have, I believe an average minimum of 45 - 50ml. There isn't many times I have recieved a 30ml shot. There seems to be a concern that you have to fill the cup to the top, or the customers being ripped off!! Recently, on a tour of Sydney cafes - I was recieving 25-30ml in the demitasse which was encouraging. So, yes there is a difference between the two cities. BUT, I see this as a great opportunity for further education within the coffee industry - people whom work behind espresso machines are only limited to what they have been taught in the past (coffee companies) and what habits they have picked up from operators around them. The other guys (They certainly show a great passion) need to get out there and spread the word about what it takes to get a great espresso coffee. I think we need to keep educating the espresso standards and keep seeking the perfect extraction. Happy drinking!!!!

Maico

For the short time I have been in the Coffee Industry, one issue that stands out, is the rivalry between Sydney and Melbourne coffee scenes. One saying that their coffee scene is better than the other. So my opinion of whether or not is Melbourne coffee crap may be partially biased, because I am a Sydney sider. Any way here it is.... You can get great coffee in Melbourne, but unfortunatley it is quite limited. Melbourne may have the culture to set the scene for great coffee, but that is not enough. Melbourne Barista's and Cafe owner's have to be more willing to put their pride aside and not think that their way is the best way and the only way. They have to look outside the square. They need more training, either to refresh their knowledge and skills or even just to see what else is out there. Please, don't think I'm being disrespectful, because not to long ago, in my opinion, Sydney was in the same boat. But because of a growing interest from young coffee makers wanting to become masters of their art, to be qualified and respected Barista's, a new passion for excellent espresso is firing up the Sydney coffee scene. This is also thanks to the coffee companies large and small that are also trying to improve the quality of espresso served. Not only through their blends, but also offering fantastic support for their cafes in terms of training. Also not to forget, the Barista comps, that help push Barista's to the limit. So, if you compare Sydney espresso to Melbourne espresso, Sydney has it over Melbourne, for the simple fact that there are more espresso bars and cafe's that serve a good espresso coffee. Ciao Maico

Unknown

Maico, I think that sums up the two cities very well. It's great to have a Master Barista share his thoughts!! Thanks.

over_extracted

well, ihave been to melbourne many times and everytime i go there it is very disappointing Here in sydney we have created a very special coffee standard that can equal any other in the world,we are passionate about our industry and we not only make some fantastic coffee but we care about all the other issue,s, from equipment to the type of milk that we use. Coffee companie,s in melbourne need to get behind their cafe,s more and their barista training and stop just selling their products like its some sort of compliment to their umbrellas and sugar sticks.Melbourne is a great city has great people and great looking cafe,s all we need now is GREAT COFFEE.ps as for the barista comps.better to  spend the money on trainning.see ya OE :P

FreshCoffee2

Responsibilities eh? Re:..."Coffee companie,s in melbourne need to get behind their cafe,s more and their barista training and stop just selling their products like its some sort of compliment to their umbrellas and sugar sticks..." "Their" barista training....? Hmm.  Sounds a trifle one sided to me and you know what they say...it takes two to tango. I wonder if it might not be too much to ask for cafe owners and their managers themselves to take some responsibility for what they serve up? Is it the cheese companies fault, or the margerine companies fault, or the sprout growers fault if the cheese foccacia is inedible? Have you ever thought there might be many cafe owners / managers / staff who simply will not accept advice from their coffee suppliers about how best to treat their product because they reckon they know best? Have you thought it might soon be possible for coffee companies to instigate legal proceedings against cafes that sabotage the coffee companies good name in the way their blends are destroyed and served up in branded cups for all to see? Have you thought that large coffee companies themselves are guilty, not in the coffee education stakes, but in setting up a marketing scenario where they "train" cafe owners to demand the best "deal" they can squeeze in items you mentioned such as umbrellas and sugar sticks, not to mention wind barriers, uniforms, heaters, awnings, branded cups etc etc etc, so they select their supplier not on whether they will get good support or not, but on which company will deliver their demands? If a cafe owner selects his supplier on the basis of demands and freebies, dont you think it's only just a small token to expect him/her to  actually know how to run their own business properly? Do you expect the bloke who hangs the shingle over his door and it reads "MD", to actually know something about doctoring? The day it becomes the sole responsibility of a coffee roasting company to look over every espresso machine operators shoulder is the day these coffee companies will start demanding a share in the profits from the cafes in which "their" espresso machine operators must be working under sub contract. Yes coffee companies may have a lot to answer for in the marketing stakes, but in the case of coffee education it is THE REPONSIBILITY of all of us, not just the whipping boys you call coffee companies. Wake up Australia, the sign over the door says "CAFE", not coffee roaster. PS apologies to those with delicate stomachs if my reference above to a cheese focaccia may have led some to think they might get sprouts in their next cheese focaccia. I have to admit to being a little foccacia deprived and dont really know much about them so I made that bit up. Also, I would expect that if I was in a really upmarket cafe, that in addition to be able to serve me up a decent coffee OR TEA (please dont make my black tea with boiler water from the espresso machine or I will definitley make a complaint) they might use butter instead of margerine! I like butter, but then again if it's been left a out in the hot kitchen and gone rancid, I better ring the dairy farmer up and make a complaint. Bloody dairy farmers, wont follow their product to the table...

over_extracted

Dear fresh coffee: after reading your post i still stand by what i wrote, and by the way to be looking over every coffee machine that you supply coffee to  means that you are doing your JOB if you are not doing this then you dont have the heart to be in this industry and maybe you can take up  making focaccias for a living. :P

FreshCoffee2

Dear over extracted. Cant handle the truth? Taking responsibility for yourself, it's a very simple concept to understand. It would serve no purpose for me to go into the focaccia industry as I've already said, I dont know nuttin about it. But then again under your scenario maybe I am ideally suited to it because then I could blame all my suppliers when my foccacias dont taste any good!

Maico

Dear Fresh coffee & Over Extracted, The point of this forum is not to take digs at each other, because it is not going to improve the quality of espresso served in Melbourne. Instead, I suggest everyone perhaps an espresso bar / cafe where they have enjoyed their coffee, so others in Melbourne can also share in the experience. So I'll put my money where my mouth is and suggest the following places where I enjoyed the espresso; POUND (lb - is the logo) - Off Chapel St, South Yarra. Saranti - Flinders Lane, Melbourne CBD. St Kilda Grocery Bar, St Kilda. Cheers Maico

FreshCoffee2

Dear Maico, this is a public forum is it not? You may be onto something however about sticking to the point so why not keep an eye out for a new line of dicussion I will be posting shortly. FreshCoffee.

over_extracted

Dear fresh coffee,now i dont think you get what my point here is,i see sales reps that part of their job is to make sure that the product they supply is to be served at their highest quality and what do these super baristas do when they turn up at your cafe....well for starters you hope that they at least they have a look at the coffee machine and see if the espresso is up to standards , and if not try to give a helping hand at correcting the problem....right.

FreshCoffee2

Dear Over Extracted, Some more random thoughts. You have raised valid points and I am glad that my organization, as well as many other specialty roasters, conducts itself in a manner you approve of. I cant see why most specialty coffee roasters wouldn't care about their product, but I cant speak for large companies who market themselves with freebies, negative selling and clich

over_extracted

Dear fresh coffee, looks like you had a change of heart about my thoughts,as for you focaccia iam no master either but looks like you must roast a bit of coffee yourself?you sound very educated in this subject iam sure that big coffee companies try to obtain accounts by the way of free stuff and compensate bad coffee for these products and to me that is just not on but then small roasters have trouble keeping up with consistancy as well.my self ,i gave up on inported coffee that has been roasted overs seas as i dont believe in 3 month old coffee ,as for the local choice well with cash$$$$$$ hand outs it is very competitive out there..but quality will allways win and to me there is no equal.AS for these super barista sales reps well they are just doing their jobs right and that is sell sell sell as much as you can. hope that first coffee in the morning makes your day ;D ;D happy brewing.

FreshCoffee2

Dear Over Extracted, no, there has been no change of heart. A definitive, black and white generalisation was made some time back that it is the coffee companies fault where cafes make a lousy coffee. I stand by the firm belief that anyone that wants to be in business whether it be a cafe or any other business has the responsibility (to their clients as well as to themselves if tbey want to stay in business) to make sure they know what they're doing. This is not the responsibility of their suppliers, although a responsible supplier will help as much as possible especially if he/she is invited to help. So, there  are degreees of grey in every situation (and understanding that is why smaller companies like mine are still in business).

Maico

Dear Over extracted & fresh coffee, You guys are obviosly very passionate about your espresso which is fantastic, and is undoubtly a step closer to creating better espresso outlets. In your previous messages to each other you both raised some very valid points and since it was pointed out to me it is a PUBLIC FORUM, I thought I would add my own thoughts again. I am a barista, I like to think one who is passionate about espresso in every way. I also work for a large coffee company and represent with pride their street espresso brands. I personally know I do all that I can to look after my premium accounts, because in the end they represent me. I almost always have an espresso when I see them, and I have no hesitations in telling them if it's good or not. Although unfortunately I cannot control every single account's espresso quality, but we try. It simply comes down to this. Espresso is about being Passionate, knowlegable and skillful. Once you learn the basics, it's not hard. Unfortunately, in my experience's training people, you either get espresso or you don't! So, what we are seeing out there in cafe's are more money opportunists who don't get espresso and no matter what we do, the never will and we can't be there to oversee them 24 / 7. In the end they do harm to their image and the brand they of coffee they use. This where, coffee companies like the one I work for are taking the next positive step - Brand criterias. Where potentential or existing cafes are given a criteria rating and if they don't meet it, we simply don't install the account or we pull our brand out. Lastly in Melbourne, there are some great local blends, but unfortunately, most of the cafe owners there don't care about quality, all they want is the cheapest price and freebies. There are some blends that sell for $13 a kilo and they give the cafe's the earth. That is what is killing or slowing down the quality of espresso in Melbourne - GREED of the cafe owners and the disrespectful coffee companies that have no passion for coffee. Ciao Maico

FreshCoffee2

Dear Maico, I think then, we are all in agreement. Thankyou.

over_extracted

Dear maico thanks for you fine thoughts I hear that you are very good at what you do, keep it up. :P OE

triclops

Its seems a long time since there was any action on this forum, but? obiviously the crema thing is Sydney orientated so lets start with Melbourne Coffee, perhaps to many old italian roasters saying this is the shit, which is 3 weeks old with 20 % robusta. To many cafe owners saying I want umbrellas and not knowing what good coffee actually tastes like! Probably pretty much the same as Sydney. Sure I can name 10 places in both cities that get it right most of the time but the 95% of all cafes are crap.  Why ? coffee is difficult 1. coffee machines, most designed not to make good coffee. 2. Most coffee is cost based. 3. Operators don't know what they are doing. 4. People get conditioned to drink crap. Sydney drinks more blacks than Melbourne the coffee is generally milder. Melbourne has been brought up on strong, (not good) coffee. Times are a changing, Merlo from brisbane, Allpress & Supreme from NZ, and other smaller roasters are starting with good coffee as a base and taking it from there. triclops

john

Dear all I am not sure as to why Melbourne was singled out for "CRAP COFFEE".

FreshCoffee2

Here here. Fresh Coffee

admin

Hi guys - if you'd bothered to read the message that started off this thread :o, you'd have seen that the post was on behalf of a Melbourne reader (who actually was commenting on one of the cafes that had been voted as one of the top 5 in Melbourne). He went on to say: 'I purchase my espresso there every day, but I must say that I am able to produce an espresso from my domestic machine that would be much better than 98% of Melbourne coffees...' so we posted it, to see if this was the general consensus and as it happened, a number of fairly knowledgable espresso people have written in, many from Melbourne, to say that the originator of this comment has a pretty good point. Admin

john

Admin ;D ;D ;D With regard to your last comment.