Coffee shots, weight versus volume.

Dry_bean. · February 2011

There's a debate going on in the other place that touches on dosing methods, i.e. weight v volume.
Some advocate the use of scales and others methods as basic as filling a filter basket with beans and levelling it off with hand, finger etc.
I believe weight is by far the more accurate method, weights and volume vary quite markedly depending on the degree of roast, I have noticed dark roasted beans grind finer and take up far less volume for a given weight than lighter roasts, as an illustration my double basket when filled level with the top will hold just over 45 grams of green Yirg or a touch over 22 grams of the same bean dark roasted, what's this got to do with anything I hear you ask? well obviously the longer a bean is roasted the greater the water loss and the more it expands, this obviously accounts for the volumetric/weight variations between green and roasted beans, what this also means is that degrees of roast will have a marked affect on volume/weight, so light roasted beans will weigh in quite a bit heavier than their darker roasted brothers, it also means that the basket you measure with may well hold 22 grams of darkly roasted beans however lighter roasted beans will weigh in quite a bit heavier for the same volume.
So all things being equal, always having the same initial moisture level and roasting to the same degree for exactly the same amount of time will result in a fair degree of repeatability, in the real world these things vary and getting similar results from one roast to the next is a difficult thing to do, so weight for a given volume will vary quite markedly from roast to roast.
If you want repeatability.
In my years of sampling geological specimens volume was never an option, we always used weight, I believe weight is by far the best option available to us in the process of making coffee as well, of course it won't suit all people or situations, but that's life. ;D

Dry_bean. · February 2011

Hmmm, only posted this half an hour ago, had an afterthought, came back but no modify button available. :-\ Anyhow, re my thoughts on weight/volume, why didn't I post this to the thread in the other place? well in the time it took me to compose and post the original the knives have been drawn and the self professed Melb based expert is heaping scorn and cynicism upon another newish member, and I simply refuse to become involved in that sort of rubbish. ::)

beanflying · February 2011

Added my $0.02 hopefully slightly more useful bit. What was missed by the usual suspects is that home users with plenty of time to play are a lot different to commercial realities. This was in particular treated with the expected level of sarcasm and derision without actually answering the questions with a reason or why do it one way or another. At home I have it easy I generally use the Kyocera grinder which grinds a touch over a double for the Pavoni followed by dose and tamp by eye. After the first shot from a roast, adjust grinder a touch if needed then is just works for me. Haven't used scales, dosing tools, toothpicks etc for ages at home. ;D

Dry_bean. · February 2011

on 1298099015:

Added my $0.02 hopefully slightly more useful bit. What was missed by the usual suspects is that home users with plenty of time to play are a lot different to commercial realities. This was in particular treated with the expected level of sarcasm and derision without actually answering the questions with a reason or why do it one way or another. At home I have it easy I generally use the Kyocera grinder which grinds a touch over a double for the Pavoni followed by dose and tamp by eye. After the first shot from a roast, adjust grinder a touch if needed then is just works for me. Haven't used scales, dosing tools, toothpicks etc for ages at home. ;D

I don't know why the guy cant answer a question without verging on rudeness. I considered the home user aspect when thinking about my original post, when I said (it won't suit all people or situations) I had home user v commercial in mind, no one would expect anyone to weigh beans in a commercial situation, mind you I can envisage a quality grinder with scales weighing beans before dumping them into the burrs being released by someone in the not too distant future. ;D I got by nicely without scales at home for over 9 years, however after discovering cheap and accurate digital scales about 12 months ago my scientific side took over and the rest is history, I like em, I'm retired and an extra few seconds preparing a shot if of no consequence to me. My method is to weigh beans, dump them into an empty hopper, grind, lift hopper and sweep any stray beans or bits into the burrs, brush ground coffee away from chute, turn grinder on again for couple of seconds to clear coffee from chute and burrs, drop Orphan funnel into PF and drop entire contents of doser into the pf cleaning the doser with a small brush as I go, remove funnel, tamp and you know the rest, like all descriptions it sounds a lot more complex than it actually is, the complete process takes a minute or so. The Bezerra should be warm by now I think I can hear a shot of Monsooned Malabar roasted last Sat calling me. ::)

Koffee_Kosmo · February 2011

I dont go by weight I go by the capacity of the basket and the correct tamped coffee depth Depth of tamping to be so it just clears the screen in the group head when the group handle is locked in place Always tamp to your machines tolerances On your Galatea its a 8mm tamp depth no matter what basket you use FR

Dry_bean. · February 2011

on 1298103872:

I dont go by weight I go by the capacity of the basket and the correct tamped coffee depth Depth of tamping to be so it just clears the screen in the group head when the group handle is locked in place Always tamp to your machines tolerances On your Galatea its a 8mm tamp depth no matter what basket you use FR

Oh dear, another variable, I can just see the mob over there all rushing out to buy vernier gauges trying to measure the tamp depth. ;D My Reg Barber tamper just happens to be 8mm deep, fingers resting on top edge of tamper gives an easy reference point.

Koffee_Kosmo · February 2011

on 1298105177:

Oh dear, another variable, I can just see the mob over there all rushing out to buy vernier gauges trying to measure the tamp depth. ;D My Reg Barber tamper just happens to be 8mm deep, fingers resting on top edge of tamper gives an easy reference point.

These a couple of pour result videos of the method I described above ( And you may have seen them is the past ? ) Bezzera Galatea -

Bezzera BZ40 -

KK

askthecoffeeguy · February 2011

I use weight as a tool for dosing only to occasional check my technique or when testing new equipment or setting up a new machine

Dry_bean. · February 2011

on 1298107941:

on 1298105177:

Oh dear, another variable, I can just see the mob over there all rushing out to buy vernier gauges trying to measure the tamp depth. ;D My Reg Barber tamper just happens to be 8mm deep, fingers resting on top edge of tamper gives an easy reference point.

These a couple of pour result videos of the method I described above ( And you may have seen them is the past ? ) Bezzera Galatea - Bezzera BZ40 - KK

As a matter of interest KK, I didn't post my original thoughts because I'm having problems, I'm very happy with my current set up and the results I'm achieving, it simply seemed like an interesting subject worth discussing in a civilised environment. Good video's BTW, have seen them before, certainly gives others something to aim for. ;D

Koffee_Kosmo · February 2011

As a matter of interest KK, I didn't post my original thoughts because I'm having problems, I'm very happy with my current set up and the results I'm achieving, it simply seemed like an interesting subject worth discussing in a civilised environment. Grin

I knew that because you indicated it on your first post

My reply is also a method that I have described on many occasions but alas some people just don't get the simplicity ??? Maybe that's the problem its not analytical enough and has no bells and whistles ;D KK

Dry_bean. · February 2011

on 1298109017:

Bugger... I have spent all my time trying to learn how to balance on one foot and look at the sky as some one once said that was teh best way.. And now you guys offer other methods. Who cares how you do it, so long as you get what you want and your consistent.... Coffee is like Medicine it is NOT an EXACT science there are too many variables INCLUDING CLUMPING :o Then when INTJ's get into coffee - what can one expect... Stands up straight and tall and presents scarred back, ready for the knives ;D

CLUMPING, isn't that something New Zealanders do on stage in muddy gumboots? INTJ's???? does not compute., no knives around here, we check em at the door.:-\

Dry_bean. · February 2011

on 1298111563:

As a matter of interest KK, I didn't post my original thoughts because I'm having problems, I'm very happy with my current set up and the results I'm achieving, it simply seemed like an interesting subject worth discussing in a civilised environment. Grin

I knew that because you indicated it on your first post My reply is also a method that I have described on many occasions but alas some people just don't get the simplicity ??? Maybe that's the problem its not analytical enough and has no bells and whistles ;D KK

Reckon most of us are heading for the same destination, just that there are a lot of roads leading there. I'm not suggesting for a minute others adopt my way or agree with my thoughts, as I said, it seemed an interesting topic, in particular the difference in weight between light and dark roasts, never seen it touched on before. As AM said, no right or wrong, it's what's in the cup that matters. ;D

Koffee_Kosmo · February 2011

Reckon most of us are heading for the same destination, just that there are a lot of roads leading there. I'm not suggesting for a minute others adopt my way or agree with my thoughts, as I said, it seemed an interesting topic, in particular the difference in weight between light and dark roasts, never seen it touched on before. As AM said, no right or wrong, it's what's in the cup that matters. ;D

Grind size as well as roast depth all have an affect on actual "ground bean volume" And that's the reason weight wont work every time and my method does work every time (for me at least) as it only relies on the machines tolerances I enjoy beautiful coffee every day just like the videos I posted above Another tip is that if you level fill the basket you are using with roasted beans and grind that quantity, then you will be close to 99% of the actual amount of ground beans you will need for the shot you are about to pull KK

Dry_bean. · February 2011

on 1298113339:

Reckon most of us are heading for the same destination, just that there are a lot of roads leading there. I'm not suggesting for a minute others adopt my way or agree with my thoughts, as I said, it seemed an interesting topic, in particular the difference in weight between light and dark roasts, never seen it touched on before. As AM said, no right or wrong, it's what's in the cup that matters. ;D

Grind size as well as roast depth all have an affect on actual "ground bean volume" And that's the reason weight wont work every time and my method does work every time (for me at least) as it only relies on the machines tolerances I enjoy beautiful coffee every day just like the videos I posted above Another tip is that if you level fill the basket you are using with roasted beans and grind that quantity, then you will be close to 99% of the actual amount of ground beans you will need for the shot you are about to pull KK

Fair enough, whatever works for you, weight works for me 100% of the time and yep, I achieve results very similar to what we see in your video. "Grind size as well as roast depth all have an affect on actual "ground bean volume" I'm well aware of this and have mentioned it a couple of times. "that's the reason weight wont work every time and my method does work every time" now that's a bold statement, guess I'm going to have to riposte by saying that's the reason volume wont work every time but my method does, for me any way. ::) As far as I'm concerned weight is the way to go, have done volume tests involving baskets then weighed the contents, I found variations of up to + - approx 1 gram, that's a variation of about 5% way too imprecise to satisfy me. Somehow I doubt either of us will convince the other to change, vive la diff

beanflying · February 2011

At the end of the day one method adjusts the grind size based on a "normal" weight or volume to get a result in the cup. The biggest variable between both methods is actually the grinder setting

WotB · February 2011

Looks like the typical tag-team to me. Probably why I only lurk nowadays.

Dry_bean. · February 2011

on 1298161589:

At the end of the day one method adjusts the grind size based on a "normal" weight or volume to get a result in the cup. The biggest variable between both methods is actually the grinder setting

It's a variable, but assuming the use of a reasonable grinder, totally controllable by the operator, also assuming of course the operator has a bit of a clue about what he/she is doing ::) assumption can of course be mine fields for the unwary, remember the old saying "Never assume anything

Dry_bean. · February 2011

on 1298163416:

Looks like the typical tag-team to me. Probably why I only lurk nowadays.

Are you referring to the thread over there? ;D

Koffee_Kosmo · February 2011

I should confess of how my method came to be I was swapping and changing different size baskets to get the strength & flavour results that were pleasing to the pallet for my wife and I At one stage I had a 21 gr La Marzocco basket The weight scenario was a nightmare because of my many basket changes, so I did what any self respecting engineer would to and came up with an alternative If I was to do a cross reference of my method to weigh the puck I would not be surprised to find that the weight will be very close to ideal for the basket capacity KK

WotB · February 2011

on 1298164469:

on 1298163416:

Looks like the typical tag-team to me. Probably why I only lurk nowadays.

Are you referring to the thread over there? ;D

Why yes, I am. The puppet master and his puppet.

Unknown · February 2011

Well....Technique in high volume environments will always seperate the coffee maker from the barista. But a few simple rules about dosing techniques will help you to make a relatively consistant extraction in the kitchen Alternatively weigh your dose and change the grind accordingly to a safe extraction time of 27 sec (if possible) Check out stockfleths method, you trade off complexity for smoothness, but the point is, try different methods, and don't be too fussed about dose weight, Coffee is alive, and will rebel if you try to exact too many parameters upon it

Unknown · February 2011

volume and weight are essentially the same thing, oxygen (h20 obviously) is the variable in most comparisons of the same ilk. But very relavent to this question, As a general rule, you are the most fallibe part of the process, but understaning dosing technique will afford you a better understanding of wieght/dose relavance

askthecoffeeguy · February 2011

What about climate conditions? I set up a cafe in byron recently and had the coffee machine working beautifully on a cool day but the shots were totally gushing when I came back the next day as it was much hotter Had the grinder set up for automated dosage and the tamper was pre set so the only variable left to play with was grind size - surely this as important if not more so than weight or volume ?

Unknown · March 2011

I guess I included climate (in my mind) without saying it directly. But definately if you have an auto dose machine, grind change is the ultimate controller. Which I would hope any proud home barista, and at the least a professional, would be approaching coffee from this angle. To fully capture my point here, running your shots to an approximate 27 seconds is the key. Dose technique/volume/weight/grind, change one, and all others will have to change accordingly (to the 27 sec rule)

askthecoffeeguy · March 2011

on 1300075557:

I guess I included climate (in my mind) without saying it directly. But definately if you have an auto dose machine, grind change is the ultimate controller. Which I would hope any proud home barista, and at the least a professional, would be approaching coffee from this angle. To fully capture my point here, running your shots to an approximate 27 seconds is the key. Dose technique/volume/weight/grind, change one, and all others will have to change accordingly (to the 27 sec rule)

cant agree with you there each grinder / coffee machine set up works differently and what works for one does not nec work for all - also machines such as the one I use at my work need to specifically set up and designed to accommodate 24g baskets, and can run shots for a minute or more without blonding or burning the coffee...

Dry_bean. · March 2011

on 1298199449:

What about climate conditions? I set up a cafe in byron recently and had the coffee machine working beautifully on a cool day but the shots were totally gushing when I came back the next day as it was much hotter Had the grinder set up for automated dosage and the tamper was pre set so the only variable left to play with was grind size - surely this as important if not more so than weight or volume ?

I find changes in humidity have a much greater affect on flow rate than temp changes, the temp can swing quite widely and I find little difference however a sudden increase in humidity will make quite a change to my grinder settings.

Dry_bean. · March 2011

on 1300075557:

To fully capture my point here, running your shots to an approximate 27 seconds is the key. Dose technique/volume/weight/grind, change one, and all others will have to change accordingly (to the 27 sec rule)

Oh dear, another rule, 27seconds eh, first it was 25 sec's then 30 now it's 27 seconds or does (running your shots to an approximate 27 seconds) give me enough leeway to include 25 and 30? Googled 27 second rule but came up with nothing. ::)

askthecoffeeguy · March 2011

I use the 30 from 30 as a guideline only and that's to run a double ristretto from 24g baskets - i guess the good thing here is to fast and it means its time to tighten the shots, and too slow - and it might still be pouring beautifully - and its time to widen the grind in order to crank out the shots in a commercial setting

Unknown · March 2011

Well Dry bean Rolling eyes. 27sec rule does give the space to groove. When I speak of such parameters, I am speaking about a standard set up. No super size baskets, no major machine improvements, No hyper geeky super coffee knowledge. The 27sec rule, is not an industry standard, it was my attempt to assist answering the question posed, without over complicating it. Here's a thought.....apply my method to your coffee making, and come back to me when you discover how good the coffee tastes using it. Or just roll your eyes and assume that you know it all.

Unknown · March 2011

I fully agree with you Pat, about machine/grinder (and bean if you like) interface being vastly different in the infinate amount of combos you can create. But in the end, I think you need a parameter of working, so as to be able to achieve the best possible result within that parameter. ie; Time - weight - grind setting - etc. Only then can you play with the parameters, which (hopefully) leads you to an alchemical explosion into Espresso Nirvana. In my 12 years of full time professional coffee making. I have changed my methods at least 6 or 7 times. Recently I have adopted the 27sec (thereabouts) method. With three taps, a sweep, a pull and a push. With just the right amount of fairy dust, to make my cup good. And am finding it excessively delightful. Double baskets are around 18/19g. Anyway, set a parameter first, then move on. Like in your (Pat) 30 for thirty.

Dry_bean. · March 2011

on 1300182516:

Well Dry bean Rolling eyes. 27sec rule does give the space to groove. When I speak of such parameters, I am speaking about a standard set up. No super size baskets, no major machine improvements, No hyper geeky super coffee knowledge. The 27sec rule, is not an industry standard, it was my attempt to assist answering the question posed, without over complicating it. Here's a thought.....apply my method to your coffee making, and come back to me when you discover how good the coffee tastes using it. Or just roll your eyes and assume that you know it all.

The post was meant to be tongue in cheek Flushed, sorry you took it the wrong way. As far as applying your or any other method to my coffee making, I don't feel a need to, the method I have developed over the past 15 years produces excellent and consistent results. As far as assuming to know it all, will leave that to others, I still have plenty to learn.

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