Grinder suggestions

Lacehim · April 2011

Hi,

I currently have a old style stepped Compak k6. The pv lusso has small baskets, 45mm I think and I would love micrometric rather than stepped but I also have a syphon.

Anyone have any ideas or suggestions? I would like to keep it smallish and under 1k new. Might buy second hand high if the price is right.

Koffee_Kosmo · April 2011

I know someone with a BNZ conical like mine (but not offering mine) Its stepped but I have a reversible mod to make it step-less But it may blow your budget however it may also be the last grinder you will own KK

RichardM · April 2011

Keeping it small makes it kind of hard. I personally wanted something small, but in the end gave up and got a second hand Mazzer Super Jolly. No matter what you're after, if you are prepared for quality second hand, I'd contact Craig at 9barespresso. You can run the super jolly's etc hopperless, so that makes them much smaller, and such a quality piece of gear.

askthecoffeeguy · April 2011

I'm in the market for a deli grinder sub $1k if anyone has any suggestions...

Lacehim · April 2011

An ns grinder am? Need more info. Kk, I've seen the md74. Been on eBay too. Don't know a lot about em, but it looks too big for me. I don't want to go any bigger than the k6 really. I need a red one too!!! But I could paint it! Red machine, cups, knock bin, and the k6 too. You get the idea

Considered a vario. Like the idea but so many mixed reviews. The k6 is okay, but I'm finding the steps are just that little bit too big for the Pvl when I want a fine adj. Can you make them stepless or fit micrometric parts for the later model k6?

Koffee_Kosmo · April 2011

on 1304168102:

An ns grinder am? Need more info. Kk, I've seen the md74. Been on eBay too. Don't know a lot about em, but it looks too big for me. I don't want to go any bigger than the k6 really. I need a red one too!!! But I could paint it! Red machine, cups, knock bin, and the k6 too. You get the idea Considered a vario. Like the idea but so many mixed reviews. The k6 is okay, but I'm finding the steps are just that little bit too big for the Pvl when I want a fine adj. Can you make them stepless or fit micrometric parts for the later model k6?

Yea the BNZ is built like a tractor I feel its the equivalent to the Robur but its much smaller I have to see the K6 in person to determine if it can be converted to a step-less operation KK

Rider · May 2011

on 1304154558:

Hi, I currently have a old style stepped Compak k6. The pv lusso has small baskets, 45mm I think and I would love micrometric rather than stepped but I also have a syphon. Anyone have any ideas or suggestions? I would like to keep it smallish and under 1k new. Might buy second hand high if the price is right.

Hey Lacehim, Easy, Macap M4D. Micrometric, stepless, electronic timed dose etc etc... It is doserless though, so I don't know if this would change your opinion. KK owned one back in the day so he will be able to provide information on useability, footprint and grind quality. Achievable under your budget if you shop around mate. Chris

Koffee_Kosmo · May 2011

Easy, Macap M4D. Micrometric, stepless, electronic timed dose etc etc... It is doserless though, so I don't know if this would change your opinion. KK owned one back in the day so he will be able to provide information on usability, footprint and grind quality. Achievable under your budget if you shop around mate.

I did have a M4D back in the day however mine was a rare stepped model I now prefer doser models as they are easier for the preparation routine The M4 / M4D are good grinders and would be equal to a Mazzer MM or Jolly KK

Lacehim · May 2011

The vario ticks all the boxes, but I just have that nagging doubt about it. Also someong I PM'd once had one for a week. Couldn't get it to grind right so it was returned. Also some have compaired it to the breville which made it worse! Neat little package though, and no grind retention... Anyone have clumping issues with an M4D? The only doserless I had was a rocky in Miss Lucy, and it was really bad for clumps and messy too. I don't really want to go back to having a plastic container under the spout for spilt grinds. I also like the stepped so that I can change grinds for syphon, but it makes fine adjustments a bit harder. Maybe I should just buy a vario and see what happens? I don't want to start a whole import verse buying local thread but I did notice that bellabarista.co.uk is much cheaper for the vario. Only $520, and that's inc 20% VAT!!! Best price i've seen in Australia is $620. They also mentioned a Red Eureka Mignon... Mmm Red. None on their website though.

I suppose that grinder would compare to a rocky (thinking burrs sizes) Would I notice the difference between that (50mm) and my current (63mm) burr K6? Who knows.

Lacehim · May 2011

on 1304228163:

I have a Eureka Mignon and it is great but not a doser... But I understand that one can be had ????

Yes, no doser (haven't seem them with one) but smallish, compact.

on 1304228163:

Have a MaCap M4 and it is good...

How do the two compare AM? Do you prefer a doser? I've only experienced the rocky which does clump but I'm trying not to dismiss ALL doserless grinders.

Rider · May 2011

on 1304226473:

Anyone have clumping issues with an M4D? Maybe I should just buy a vario and see what happens? I don't want to start a whole import verse buying local thread but I did notice that bellabarista.co.uk is much cheaper for the vario. Only $520, and that's inc 20% VAT!!! Best price i've seen in Australia is $620.

No real clumping issues with the M4D at all. Some small 'soft' clumps depending on the bean but nothing that is a problem. Yeah while the dollar hangs around at these levels you are always going to see better prices OS. We got our M4D outta Italy and saved a minimum $350. Think you could even save a little more now....

shape_shifter · May 2011

Is there any way to pull a grinder apart and put sound deadening in it, or would that not really take away any of the noise? I use a Spong and I can't handle the noises from electric grinders, I keep reading and being told that I can't get the espresso quality grind from the hand grinders. I do know that I can get a powdery grind from the Spong so I'm not really understanding what everyone is saying. My OH is going to build me a grind sieve to see what size particles we're actually getting.

Rider · May 2011

on 1304231295:

Is there any way to pull a grinder apart and put sound deadening in it, or would that not really take away any of the noise?

No idea as I have never pulled one apart

. Someone here should have an idea though.

Lacehim · May 2011

I pulled my K6 apart... inside is a big motor and under the base was a few electrical bits. Nothing much else. They really are simple.

Koffee_Kosmo · May 2011

Anyone have clumping issues with an M4D? The only doserless I had was a rocky in Miss Lucy, and it was really bad for clumps and messy too. I don't really want to go back to having a plastic container under the spout for spilt grinds.

Two things that can make any and all grinders clump The worst mix is - A combination of static, humidity and oily beans These are the weather conditions we get in QLD The M4D that I had did have some clumping but as noted above they were soft This is just one many reasons I favour doser models In this scenario the doser sifts the coffee prior to delivery into the basket KK

Rider · May 2011

Oh yeah Lacehim, The grinder is clean, clean, clean for a doserless job. Amazingly little mess.

FreshCoffee2 · May 2011

on 1304168102:

.....The k6 is okay, but I'm finding the steps are just that little bit too big for the Pvl when I want a fine adj. Can you make them stepless or fit micrometric parts for the later model k6?

Hello all. I dont see the problem or the need to change to a different grinder, particularly where you say that you grind for two different methods of brewing, making a micrometric adjusting grinder tedious (although we would be happy to sell you one of that is what you want!). We use a professional stepped grinder in our cupping lab next to the roaster and have to deal with all different types of coffee origins and roast profiles one after the other. This means changing grind setting very often. The oft used excuse of "the steps are too large" (when used to describe good name cafe / commercial grinders) usually means the operator is not using his understanding of the coffee making process to change his technique to suit. For example, when one "step" is said to be too fine but the next one is said to be too coarse, all the operator need do is either settle more, or settle less, when charging the group handle and before tamping, always making sure to come to the same level dose in the filter after tamping. As stated, we deal with this every day because of the need to change coffees often in the same equipment and you simply find the best method of operation for the coffee and equipment at hand. This is why some call it a black art, and why real baristas have a level of understanding well above what I would call "espresso machine operators" or EMO's. None of this is meant to upset, and I sincerely hope this helps. Getting tired of the old "stepped grinders are not as good as stepless because I cant find exactly the right grind for my..." internet generated and perpetuated furphy. Yes I do understand that some grinders have larger steps than others but.... In any case the bottom line is if you want to change the grinder than by all means do so and if we can help we will! Rgdz, Attilio very first Crema Forum site sponsor.

Lacehim · May 2011

Attilio & AM. You are both correct, it's a art getting a decent coffee and I would never call myself a barista. I actually have must more apprication for people that make good coffee than I did years ago before heading down the coffee path. Attilio, no offence taken. I've always loved reading your posts because you just tell it like it is. I quite agree that stepped grinders aren't bad, and very good for both ranges of grind. It probably does stem from my lack of knowledge/training, but I also have narrow deep baskets (45mm) to fill which is new to me (previously 58mm) and also causing issues with dosing & tamping. I have also noticed that my second shot is better than the first if I'm pulling too. Maybe I'm not purging enough old ground coffee? This thread really carries on from a thread I posted on another forum, and I probably didn't explain my issues with the K6 that well here. I was having a frustrating day with the K6 and posted up here hoping that someone would wave a magic wand!

For me the K6 is messy, because my baskets are narrow, it's big which is not as big an issue as it may seem, but I do have the big hopper (yes I tried it off and I didn't like it), there's also a retention of grinds which isn't all that great for home use. It is pretty hard to remain consistant when your making a couple of coffees a day and added into that are different beans, humidity (I'm in SE QLD), and a lever machine that take a bit of getting used to. I really liked the Mahlkonig Vario but the reviews haven't been that stunning, and it's unknown if the manufacturer have fixed any of the issues in newer models. I also spoke to another forum member that returned his after a weeks use with problems.

Also they have the Pro M (not sure if it's sold here) which would have been great, but for some insane reason you can't access the burrs, it would have been perfect otherwise for home use. Access to the burrs is a must for cleaning or fixing blockages (which there was during pre-production models). I've discounted going up the upgrade path that others have taken to conicals etc because of size and grind retention and price. For me it's overkill. I don't do alot of "other brewing methods" it's about 95% espresso, and occasionally I'll break out the syphon for a change. I have to admit I have considered the Eureka Mignon, but it would have to be a red one

I wasn't sure if I would notice a difference in the coffee due to the burr sizes? So there you go. I'm off to make a coffee now. Thanks for the input Attilio, it's great to see you here, and I will try to use my somewhat limited knowledge and your advice re grinds/dosing. AM, Can I pop in to see your Eureka Mignon sometime?

Koffee_Kosmo · May 2011

The BNZ is stepped and I like it I did a reversible step-less mod a little while ago but I reverted back to stepped KK

FreshCoffee2 · May 2011

Re: "...I have to admit I have considered the Eureka Mignon, but it would have to be a red one I wasn't sure if I would notice a difference in the coffee due to the burr sizes?..." The K6 is a 64 mm diameter grinding plate which makes it a "small" cafe sized grinder...not for high or more correctly - fast - production eg say 10 kilo per week well spread out over the week. The Mignon is a 50 mm diameter grinding plate which makes it a "secondary" sized cafe grinder ie for a secondary coffee eg decaff or something in small volume compared to the regular turnover. That is about volume production, and therefore the generation of heat by friction and ultimately whether a grinder cuts out or not due to the thermal cutout...... After that, only an individual can be the judge of whether he or she thinks there is a noticeable difference in the character of the coffees due ONLY to the difference in size of the grinding plates, when they are both virtually "cut" the same way. I have conducted my own test to see if I thought the above could be proved or not....ie, is there a difference in the character of the coffee, when the only difference between the coffees is the difference in the relative size of the grinders. I used a Mignon (stepless and 50mm plates) , and a Macap M9 (stepped & 68mm plates from memory). Both being regular commercial quality grinders with flat or planar grinding plates or burrs, therefore comparing apples with bigger apples, not apples to oranges. It wasnt a blind test. What we did was to adjust both grinders down to a point where it seemd the resulting coffees were pouring and producing equally (for my particular espresso brewing technique using my favourite espresso blend) and then we started cupping them off together. We made several pairs of coffees to compare. The result for us, was that we could not judge any significant difference on the palate between the coffees made, using the two different grinders, for that blend, my technique & my cupping machine............... I do have a reasonable palate and judge at Sydney Royal and if I dont think that I can pick a significant difference, I then make the assumption (whether rightly or not) that most of my clients probably cant either....... After that its up to you and you have to do what you want and buy what you like. We sell plenty of Mignons......and you have to look at the psychology of the sale as well as the perceived quality of the equipment. On the shop floor, we find that a significant proportion of grinder sales are actually made by the "other-arf"..... eg hubby buys the coffee machine he wants, and the other-arf really likes the minute size and look of the smaller grinder. Usually there is a BUDGETARY constraint over which the couple are not prepared to go, and most will turn off as soon as you mention the price bracket of a Mini Mazzer or Macap M4. Most sales are to regular people that want a great coffee machine and grinder combo for a commercial quailty coffee......and NOT to "coffee-geek" type people. The shop staff would starve if they were waiting for coffee geek types to make purchases....... Hope that helps, and there is no doubt in my mind that if there wasnt a "low" budgetary constraint in most cases, that the clients would buy the "best looking" grinder up to their ceiling whatever the model be for their particular taste (and I happen to like the soft symetrical round lines of the Macaps while others like whatever they like and so be it). Oh by the way the mignon does come in red but none of the above is mentioned to try and get you to buy one. It is just the stuff of reality as we see it from the actual business side of coffee on the floor in the shop rather than from a computer screen

Rgdz, Attilio] very first Crema site sponsor!

Lacehim · May 2011

Wow. Thanks for that Attilio.

My palate isn't very developed, and it's great to hear that someone like yourself has conducted this test. I'm sure that over time I will be able to develop mine, but I don't want to be upgrading X months down the track because I find something lacking. Now I don't have to worry. When I started out I found myself (like most newbies) getting carried away with the big, better, more expensive set ups. I have to admit that I took a step back, looked at what I had and what I wanted to achieve. That led me to buy the PV Lusso. It's different, yes, but it's fun! And for a home users, quiet and can even cater for an occasional party.

I think I've narrowed my grinder choice to the Mignon (in red), a Baratza Virtuoso Preciso (A small conical but I'm not sure if it's sold here as yet but it ticks most of the boxes) or Mahlkonig Vario.

Koffee_Kosmo · May 2011

With the question of retained grinds in the chute I use a brush to keep it clean It takes a whopping 3 seconds to do the job I my case the doser also gets the clean brush treatment The brush costs $2.50 and is available from hair dressing supply shops Its called a colour applicator brush and comes in 3 sizes For my grinder the middle size is best The brush end sweeps the chute clean & the pointy end gets in and loosens any stubborn bits, edges ect resize?sq=80&uid=1170744664

KK

hazchem · May 2011

on 1304226473:

The vario ticks all the boxes, but I just have that nagging doubt about it. Also someong I PM'd once had one for a week. Couldn't get it to grind right so it was returned. Also some have compaired it to the breville which made it worse! Neat little package though, and no grind retention...

I've had my Vario for some time now & have been very happy with my purchase. Initially I bought it as my pourover grinder, paired with my K10 for espresso use. Footprint & specs made it (for me) ideal for the task, plus zero grind retention meant getting into weighing things would be a bit easier. The grinder performed this task flawlessly and proved to be a great grinder for domestic pourover use, good uniformity of grind particle size, vastly improved flavour in the cup vs hand grinders, zero grind retention, easy to use & consistent. Since then, the grinder has moved to being our decaf espresso grinder in the cafe. There was a Breville Smart Grinder on the bench when I started, but I quickly discovered that it's not capable of grinding fine enough for espresso so decided to use my Vario instead. While we don't sell a LOT of decaf, the improvement in the cup has been phenomenal & we now receive compliments for our decaf drinks regularly. basically, would I buy it again? yes.

Lacehim · May 2011

Thanks hazchem, it's great to hear from a satisfied owner.

Very interesting. Best price I've go so far on these is $680 with free delivery. The Baratza vario (same machine) in the US retails for... $450 :o I'm really not sure why it costs so much here. Baratza also have the Baratza Virtuoso presico Conical Burr grinder for $299 which has had many great reviews. Shame it's not stocked here.

Lacehim · May 2011

Maybe we should import a few!!! I'm so tempted to get my sister to bring on over from the UK in her luggage (it's only 4kg or so) Mahlkonig Vario $530AU inc postage to her, and that includes 20% VAT.

Lacehim · May 2011

Baratza only have one supplier in Australia, and they don't have the Vario in their range. Is there a reason for this? Baratza are supposed to have great customer support according to reviews from overseas, yet only one supplier in Australia. Very strange. You would think that we would want to support companies that have good customer support. Personally I like the Vario but noone has offered me one at $580!!! So far tried two places online and inc delivery the price is still $680 so I will probably by the Mignon if nothing happens to the price of the vario soon. The Mignon has a doser version too... never knew that. Just have to decide what one to buy. According to their site E61 only sell the Breville Smart Grinder. I haven't seen an unbiased review of these yet with a comparison to other grinders. Also parts availability down the track might be an issue. They did that that grinder at $240 for a while, best price I've seen anywhere!

Lacehim · May 2011

But is it red???

FreshCoffee2 · May 2011

FYI Just had a meeting with mignon importer....None available / in country for another 4 weeks or so..... Hope that helps. Rgdz, Attilio very first Crema site sponsor

Lacehim · May 2011

Thanks Attilio. I've been made an offer by Matt from E61 that I just can't refuse for the Mahlkonig Vario. It ticks all the boxes for what I want in a grinder, and I've always kept coming back to it. I will be keeping my K6 for a while to do a side by side comparison, and will be happy to post up a review on my thoughts. I have found some really good reviews on this grinder and I'm quite excited to be moving to a more compact home style grinder, and moving away from the bigger is better thought process that most seem to follow. Is it red? No. Bugger, but hey I can't have everything can I.

Lacehim · May 2011

Does anyone know of a breville smart grinder vs vario review? They are always getting compared but I haven't actually seen any real world side by side testing. Just curious really. FYI the order has been placed. Anyone wanna buy a lovely red K6?

shape_shifter · May 2011

I can't answer the last question but my OH wants the Breville grinder to go with the Breville Dual Boiler, because I was told I couldn't use a hand grinder with a machine, I'm going to be doing comparisons between hand grinders and an electric grinder using a measuring sieve to make sure all the variables are as similar as possible ;D

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