New machine suggestions please

derrilex · November 2011

Thanks guys, I cant wait for tomorrow. I'm not really sure how I feel about the 6910 - mixed feelings. A great intro into the world of coffee and for that I should thankful but its definitley time to move on.

Koffee_Kosmo · November 2011

Just remember Tamp to a basket depth of a minimum 8mm or you will be overdosing

Then you can play around with grind ect KK

derrilex · November 2011

Thanks KK, thats one of the questions I have for Chris when he runs through the machine with me tomorrow. Trial and error coming up, good thing I just got my fresh 1kg of beans today.

FreshCoffee2 · November 2011

And....here is another Position Statement to match mycuppa's own very well written post above.

on 1320660086:

I rarely comment about machines and equipment but.....my next statement is going to inflame a lot of people as there are many who become, how do I say it, overly zealous about their chosen gear .etc etc etc etc etc.....

Thank you for annunciating what a select few of us have been plugging for quite some time. The exact same sentiments can be extrapolated to include the seemingly never ending debate concerning flat burred Vs some very expensive conical burred grinders for in home use..... In the end a lot of stuff that is written is skewed firstly by traders to try and get the edge and sell you their chosen product over someone elses, and secondly by academically inclined non coffee industry special interest forum participants who it would seem, have the palates of the coffee equivalent of Len Evans (one of the most famous wine industry palates of all time for those that do not know). These academic discussions also contribute to making many home end buyers scared to or insecure about buying anything but what is very well plugged around the forums, lest they somehow make a big mistake and end up with equipment that doesnt meet up to grand (forum generated) expectations. The reality is, that while some forum watchers end up with only a select small range of and very expensive equipment plugged around as being the ants pants, actual experience in my own roasterie and equipment showroom shows that the greatest majority of sales go to couples that cannot justify / are not prepared to pay, huge prices for high volume / capacity equipment for their in house enjoyment. And therefore, sales of modestly priced semi commercial HX machines and smaller flat burred semi commercial grinders far outweigh sales of the larger ticket items having the greatest amount of academic internet forum cred. For those that are interested to know, in the main our experience is, that large ticket items brought in to our showroom to satisfy forum watchers, actually sit and gather dust (because of the price), while the more moderately priced but still excellent and extremely capable semi commercial equipment with smaller capacity and fewer bells and whistles roll out the door continually. Yes the large ticket items with best forum generated academic cred would sell better......if traders were prepared to sell to the client for a greatly reduced / or no profit but where's the sense in that...it costs more & you pay more). You cant see that from the safety of your one sided computer screen, but from my own experience the real market is largely made of equipment sales of equipment that does not necessarily match with what readers may expect after reading the forums extensively and allowing themselves to be duly influenced.... Keeping it real. Having said all that, I had a couple of great deals to offer derrilex but it seems I have come back from HOST a day later than required on this occasion. So good luck with your Bz99, you will enjoy it immensely

Rgdz to all, Attilio very first Crema Site Sponsor

derrilex · November 2011

Tell me about these deals you speak of ;D Well the machine is home, grinder has to wait as I got a speeding ticket on route to pick the machine up :doh: Heats up pretty quick and it was good to go at the 20 minute mark but I gave it half a hour. First shots were acceptable or I should say drinkable but room for improvement. The steam is off the planet compared to the 6910. It does 250 mm of milk in the same time it took steam to appear at the end of 6910's wand. I haven't timed it but I would say 15 - 20 seconds max. Much practice required but thanks to a few hints from Chris there have been no explosions. Matching the jug size is the key I think which, until pointed out by Chris, I hadnt even considered. I'll take KK's advice re the 8 mm tamp depth and just work on grind and tamp using the 480 grinder - for the time been. Updates as they happen. One thing Ive noticed, the baskets are very small ( 12 g and 8 g ) and was going to try the sunbeam double as it is larger. It clips in PF fine and locks in well - anyone else tried it ?

derrilex · November 2011

Tried using KK's milk texturing method last night and had a massive improvement in quality. Still not quite spot on but only a few tweeks away from perfect milk. The shots are overall pretty good considering the grinder. Unfortunately the demo coffee that Chris provided me with ( ground) is a bit too fine and the machine struggles with it so I have nothing to compare the 480's grinding with.

Brett H · November 2011

If you were getting good coffee on the 0480/6910 then the same grinder is capable of making good coffee on the Bezzera so get practicing!

I had a Lux when I first upgraded from Silvia and with peresverence the coffee was fantastic. The upgraded grinder just improved the frequency and consistency of the 'God' shots. Great work getting the steaming happening so well so quickly... this took me ages every time I upgraded machines. The KK technique also sorted me out!

derrilex · November 2011

I'm still gob smacked at the steam power of the BZ. Chris at Bezzera was doubtful about the 480's abilities to produce but so far I have no dramas. I think I'll hone the skills with the 480 before upgrading the grinder

Brett H · November 2011

on 1320961217:

I'm still gob smacked at the steam power of the BZ. Chris at Bezzera was doubtful about the 480's abilities to produce but so far I have no dramas. I think I'll hone the skills with the 480 before upgrading the grinder

The 0480 just won't have the repeatability or the ease of use of a bigger, faster, quieter and better looking unit. Chris is right to be doubtful and I'm sure once you upgrade you will (like I did) wonder why you waited.. but in the meantime enjoy the journey.

derrilex · November 2011

No doubt a grinder upgrade will do wonders and will happen within the next few weeks. I'll be going for Bezzera BB05.

coffeehorse · November 2011

on 1320725412:

Ahhh the grinder , well thats a different storey, which I suspect is going to no less painful. Bezerra reccomend the BB05 which is $ 495. Until I decide the old 480 will have to do. Cant be any worse the the 6910

I'll break this response up a little: Grinder While I have a vested interest in this topic (I have a couple of machines for sale), this makes me cautious about rubbishing another person's opinion. However, last time I talked to Chris I was standing on a box at The Rocks' Aromafest with a Domus Galatea and a BB004 (which I think is the one AM is referring to). It was slow, frustrating and as with very obvious welds everywhere, and grind quality to my mind was a little less than the Macap M4 and Mazzer Minis I was using at the time. Some people are of the opinion that that's all you'll ever need - but I've ended up with a pair of BNZ's and would think that while it's the right range to start off in, a Super Jolly is a much better grinder in terms of grind quality to my mind. I can blind taste-test them apart and prefer the SJ for complexity and a hint more brightness. The BB005 is prettier than the 004, that's for sure, but it doesn't appear to have much sales volume, and I'd be cautious about it for a few reasons. The 004 did still make over 250 shots on that day, and the main issue was that the 15L container under the drip tray ended up full and spilled over (being on the box I didn't mind so much). Machines - Cheap You should be able to make a happy-face cup of coffee with a BES800 (the old 4-glow-button one) picked up from any breville outlet for $250. But it's an appliance. It will break eventually. Having a quality basket and tamper, I can do a heaps good coffee with it (ie. I'd happily make coffee for a world barista champion on it). But.. Machines - E61 These are forgiving, solid and reliable. I spent 2 hours fixing one yesterday which had fallen over and found itself a few issues (not my machines). They are simple internally, even if some manufacturers can make them incredibly difficult to work on. Bezzera are an example, for instance, of "pain in the ass" placement of certain parts, and the Domus Galatea has a shell you need to know a few tricks to pull off and on quickly (or it's 10-15 minutes of care). Parts vary between machines too, and while things like boiler size aren't always important, things that can be done badly range from boiler level probes being stupid lengths to the configuration of the safety valve and anti/vac valve and whether they'll leak all over the electronics or the floor (the floor is the one you want) if there's an issue. Remember that "a lot of machine for the money" is both a statement of value and a major caveat. I think in general you sound set on an E61. I would be trying to convince you to go above the BZ99S for a whole heap of reasons, but I think you'll end up taking the advice of people you've met in public over a 'random forum guy', and fair play to you. While I agree that an ugly exterior can hide a beautiful heart, in this case it hides... well, here's a link to pictures. > http://thehippy.net/nucleus/?itemid=1524 Bear in mind that the BZ35/BZ40 have passively heated group heads while the Galatea has a thermosyphon loop and the BZ07 has an active group - I think the 99 is a passive but I'm not entirely sure. This changes the shot characteristics a huge amount - either way, I've noticed a massive drop through in extraction temp over a typical shot duration on the only one I've used, which I took a bead to for precisely this reason. While I don't normally link to the site... actually, I won't, search google for an Aromafest 2009 thread on another coffee forum and go to page 3, having 4 machines and 4 grinders in various combos (Domobar Super, Giotto Premium, Domus Galatea and Minore II (or III) + Macap M4, Bezzera BB004, Mazzer Mini & Mazzer Super Jolly), a lot of the folks involved came to the conclusion that there is a difference in use between the machines. It'll also show you a few well-known folks in awkward positions :D

coffeehorse · November 2011

Fully accepting that I hadn't noticed that you'd bought the machine, I can only say, as much as I love Bezzera, bring your own grinder in and try it against some non-Bezzera grinders. It's got such little market penetration that it's difficult to say if it's better or worse than anything else. Group tests are best for this, for example a Sydney meetup where 8 of us using 3 machines and 4 grinders compared that the Gino Rossi Conical was awesome for the monkey and the Macap M4 is actually better than the Mazzer Mini (2 samples at the time) as it generally clumps less and produces a cup with more body and slightly more complex mouthfeel. best John.

Brett H · November 2011

Fabulously inciteful and educated posts thank you CH. Best way as always is to go and have a play. KK's BNZ almost brought tears to my eyes at the Stratega day.... Also when I tried to lift it!

derrilex · November 2011

Word has it everyone that AM is going out of the roasting trade to move up to campos beans :D Seriously though, I had a very enjoyable couple of hours with AM this arvo and learnt more than enough to get myself into trouble. Ta for PF handle too. I'll get that on ASAP and it will look "da bomb". AM also loved the massive drip tray on the BZ :P Good news with the 6910 eh. Must be that top quality filtered water that I use eh :laugh: Once again, thanks for your generosity and knowledge, much appreciated. Pick us up a keg of beans next time your at campos will ya.

derrilex · November 2011

Surface rust, what surface rust ? I threw that in for free :D Maybe from spilling water when tank filling ? I know there is a bit of corrosion on the water filler flap. Pffft, who looks at the back anyway ;D. Is it inside the back door or on the back of the back door ? How many times did you say " the beans" to yourself on the way home ?

derrilex · November 2011

Better beans in the head than dollars to Anna Bligh. I'm not happy about my donation. A bit of dodgy 304 slip through sunbeams QA ? Hardly surprising. Wooloowin ? Geez Am I thought you were up at bloody northlakes or thereabouts, Wooloowin is just past the Valley - not far from campos actually - mmmmm. :laugh:

coffeehorse · November 2011

From memory Campos list roast date on pack not use by, so 7/11 could've been freshness issues in terms of puck expansion/degassing causing unexpected issues. Blefh. that was a bit off topic.

derrilex · November 2011

That is what I have always been told by them aswell CH. So even today, those beans are alledged to be 6 day post roast ??? . I have had awesome batches that produced lovely oozy shots (on the 6910) and some dogs that perform like yesterday. Either way, there is no way to prove when they were roasted with any seller I guess.

derrilex · November 2011

I'll be getting some more beans today, from somewhere ??, so I'll let you know the results.

coffeehorse · November 2011

I'm assuming that Chris scaced it and fiddled with it before selling it, but if he has very high/low mains voltage and you have very low/high mains voltage, it could put it out enough for shots to be poor, especially if you're one of the unlucky few running around 215-220V.

derrilex · November 2011

No tinkering that AFAIK. Just a run up to temp and flush. I know there is nothing wrong with my power, I have a tranny ( the electrical kind) outside my house and I do bulk welding at home. I would have noticed it by the welders performance. Beans are the issue and I dont think there is any reason to look anywhere else at this stage, maybe except for the grinder.

derrilex · November 2011

Hi all, small update. Got some more campos beans with the same roast date ( 7-11) so they should be well and truly in the window for usage. Got the same result, weak and watery. I grabbed some s/o columbian from bellissimo roasted on 8-11 and with a few grind adjustments got quite a good result in the cup with heaps more body and punch. Alas they are all gone now. Picked up the usual campos beans yesterday with a roast date of 14-11. They are better but its still hit and miss. I'll store the new batch for a week and get some more of 8-11 columbian to get me through. Maybe time to look at home roasting.

Lacehim · November 2011

Where do you live derrilex? If your in Brisbane, there are tons of roasters to choose from. Campos are but 1 brand. Try someone elses. Home roasting is a great idea, but adds another factor into the mix. I would try a few different brands (but fresh roasted) to make sure the machine is okay.

Koffee_Kosmo · November 2011

Roast depth can have an effect on both taste & the production of crema KK

derrilex · November 2011

I'm scared now AM, I can only guess what sort frankenstein roast you are capable of ??? :D I can hardly wait. Re the other roasters in town, Ive tried a few ( the usual suspects) but not with this machine. Ive only had it a week but I think it might be wise to buy 4 250 g bags from different boutique roasters instead of the 1 kg from campos until I find something better. I'll have to revisit previous suppliers to see how their product goes in the BZ. The search continues - part of the fun eh.

shape_shifter · November 2011

Why not try beans from mycuppa (yes he's in VIC), he roasts fantastically and orders are very very prompt, sometimes to the point of out the door the day they are roasted

Brett H · November 2011

on 1321397372:

Why not try beans from mycuppa (yes he's in VIC), he roasts fantastically and orders are very very prompt, sometimes to the point of out the door the day they are roasted

I can vouch for the Berry Apolcolypse (indescribably good) and the outstanding service. Don't tell him, but his prices are too low especially when you consider what quite ordinary roasters around town are charging.

shape_shifter · November 2011

Shhh Brett shhhh

I really shouldn't order so much as we take a while to go through it all BUT the Berry we are drinking now was roasted on the 18th October (I received it 3 days later), so that makes it, oh 4 weeks old, I can see everyone grimace, but seriously it is still going strong, granted I can't pull a shot with it through the smart grinder (I don't think it is the beans fault, the user just can't get the hang of it :doh:) but the Spong has it coming through the machine like it was roasted last week, still absolutely delicious.

mycuppa · November 2011

Thanks for the kind words. Wrong area to post, but if interested, we have about 50x various 1kg packs of the leftovers from the Golden Bean entries that were roasted on Sunday 13/10 (shite of a day to roast, but anyway that's another story). 2 different Espresso blends (one has the famed Lake Tawar, the other has CIRISI) 2 different Milk-based blends (one is Suuweet, the other is Berry Apocalypse) 2 different Single Origins (The revered Sidamo Oromia - yes, I've used a bean that is 18 months old) and the other being Tanzania TEC - although these are moving very fast and I don't expect them to last beyond tonight. 1 Organic blend These are all our standard line coffees, no specially imported "Bait & Switch" coffees that others like to enter. The Oromia is in dire short supply (someone get me a tissue please) as we have been stretching this bean so thin over the last 9 months, resisting the desire to roast it.

derrilex · November 2011

Ok, Ive just ordered 1 kg of the Berry from My Cuppa. Looking forward to it immensely. AM had some fun this evening trying to get a pressure reading. Buggers me why the PF has the two slots in the top. There must be a Bezzerra service tool PF that is used - one without slots. Maybe KK has one squirreled away

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