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Water pressure for home machine ??????

SystemSystem
edited January 1970 in Espresso Machines
A question for some plumbing type person.  I looked at a few other headings but this is slightly off the plumbing track.

I looked at this site once a week, it usually helps with any problems and is informative.

I have resurected my brothers old expresso machine which he wasnt using as he is overseas.

It has a rotary pump.

I took all the fittings, including undersink filters and a pressure reducer he told me to take. I have hooked it all up and it seems to be running well.

My question after all that is ??

When I take the water line off the machine and let it run, there doesnt seem to be a lot of pressure. Its coming out okay but not like a hose I guess. Its only small tubing, say 6-7 mm but I thought it would be squirting out harder.

I rang my bro oseas and he said the filter and pressure reducer do this.  Its 350 kpa he told me.  I also changed filters to make sure that was okay.

Can low pressure harm my machine.  Or will it just fill slower, or is this all okay and Im paranoid.  Its better than high pressure I guess so I dont get a leak.

As I say it all works well and the machine is 5-7 years old I just wanted a professional opinion.

thankyou

RUDI
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Comments

  • sharkboysharkboy
    Just throwing out unqualified opinions (as usual ;)) but from what I have read, water pressure as it is fed to the pump has to be reduced to something like 1 bar. Might be only a vibratory pump and water tank thing, but usually a pump draws water that is at a pressure of zero ie it is just sitting in a tank. I suppose when you think about it, when a HX machine is drawing water to the group it doesn't use much water (60ml for a double) I'm not sure of how much water is needed for things like circulating around E61 heads etc Please note this is just speculation on my part. I'm sure someone who actually knows the answer will respond.
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  • FreshCoffee2FreshCoffee2
    Rudi, from what you write, it seems that the machne has been fitted well. It is only natural that the water coming from the end of the hose, which has been fed through the water pressure reduction valve, appears to have a lot less pressure than your garden hose out side, which has not come through a pressure reduction, and flows at full pressure! This reduced pressure is exactly what is required to feed your machine with, and the internal water pump in the machine boosts the water pressure back up to somewhere in the range of pressure where it is meant to operate. This is so that the water pressure in the machine (as boosted back up by its own water pump) which is required to be within a certain range for optimum coffee brewing, is not adversely affected by fluctuation in full mains pressure which can occur at various times during the day. Stop worrying and enjoy. Cheers, FC.
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  • johnjohn
    Rudi FC is right. However, the water filters will also reduce the pressure and restrict the flow. For maximum benefit the flow rate though filtration systems needs to be controlled. Most systems are effective at around 3 litres per minute. I had a commercial single group (rotary pump) plumbed in at home for over 8 years being fed via a 350 kPa limiting valve and then through a twin housing filtration followed by an inline scale inhibiting cartridge, tuned to 3 litres per minute. The machine worked day in and day out without any problems. I would not expect you to have any problems either. Just remember to put the pressure limiting valve after the stop kock and before the water filter system. That is: mains - stop kock - plv - water filter - espresso machine Don't use hose clamps. JD
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  • Unknown
    thanks for that everybody...at work so using their computer....naughty me doing geeky coffee things.... i will check on the weekend my flow per minute and hopefully i come in at around 3 litres per minute. why cant i use hose clamps....i was going to add one to the fitting on the machine inlet valve...the tubing is a very tight fit but i wanted to be sure and bought a small 9-15 mm  hose clamp yesterday.    cant hurt right.??  i dont want a minor flood. it leaves the filter in john guest blue tube and goes to 6mm tube. one other question does the drain tube need much degree of slope mine runs 1 metre drop and then around the floor for three metre then 30 cm drop.....should make it to the drain right. cheers rudi the newbie to the plumb in world of espresso
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  • johnjohn
    Rudi Hose clamps are not regarded as good plumbing. A thing from the past - relic!!!! Prone to leaking. You can use the hose clamps, but beware. From time to time check they are tight. Also strongly reccommend to turn water off after every use. Just watch the drain thingo. If they are horizontal they can be prone to clogging up, especially as a few grinds accumulate in the line. Where ever possible make sure there is at least a few degrees of slope to the drain tube. Remember to flush the tube from time to time. Avoid tipping milk down the drain tube. It has a tendency to get a bit whifffffy. Good luck JD
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  • Unknown
    Dear Crema Forum members, guests, I finally have hooked up my rotary machine to the water supply. I searched crema before and luckily found a plumbing heading.  So great going crema forum. My machine seems to be working nicely but a technical question to anyone in the know. After reading this website over the last few days I set my water flow before the machine to about 2 maybe  2 and 1/2 litres a minute flow.. I have a pressure reducer, 350 kpa,     calcium filter, then carbon filter.......so adjusted the flow okay.   As i say from reading here set it at a slow rate.  Now on my rotary machine even when the machine is off,,, the bar pressure is at 4 and 1/2 bars.   when I pull a shot it goes to 9 approx as per usual and everything seems fine.   My question is should it sit at 4 and 1/2 bars off pressure now that its directed plumbed. ie  is it too low or high. when machjine is off or on its always on 4 1/2 bars. I assume its okay as I say as the flow is set.  But just checking what others have theirs set to with a direct plumb. as I say mine is  a rotary, dont know if that makes a difference. I guess its easy enough to adjust as I can adjust the tap but I already have the tap half on to restrict the flow.  Its blue john guest tubing. I see what everybody says also that hose clamps are a no no.   well i have 1 on the line as I needed to join 2 different types of tubing up.  No way around it .  I am going to put a second clamp on as a backup. if I go out for the weekend will turn off the water supply though. thanks all MARC
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  • FreshCoffee2FreshCoffee2
    Good show old chap! the gauge reads pressure in the water feed line all the time whether machine is on or off. So it's telling you it thinks there is 450 kPa (4.5 bar) pressure in the water line...even though you have a 350 kPa (3.5 bar) limiting valve & filters in the line...intieresting !!!!! Even when you turn the feed tap off, there is still presure in the line going up to the machine so the guage will read what it reads! I dont think there is anything too sinister going on, the most likely explanation is the machine's water pressure guage is "out". Many of them are...Or, your pressure limiting valve could be out. Either way, done worry be happy as long as you are not exceeding the max rated input pressure of your filter system. If you want to second guess the guage you have to get another one to double check with, or fit a new presssure limiting valve. Is it worth the bother, probably not. Suggest you never leave the water on to the machine unless it is in use or it is day time and you are home. Leaving water line on when you are away or asleep is asking for trouble. Eventually you will flood out your home when the line bursts. If you are home and awake you find it quickly, otherwise... Enjoy, FC.
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  • Unknown
    thanks fc guage must be out or I suspect pressure limiter,  as its also running through 2 water filters,  ie calcium and charcol. .  surprises me as its a ecm machine just over 1 year old and reads okay pulling shots. I mean goes to 9 bar on pulling shot etc so seems accurate. the pressure limiter must be way out and its brand new. i checked water output again to make sure.   flow restricted a lot, ie about 2 litres a minute. I will turn the water off when leaving.  A pain but I know your right, the time I dont I will get a leak. Saying that its great being plumbed. And I think just slightly nicer tasting coffee with filters and water etc. thankyou for the advice cheers MARC
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  • Unknown
    Marc Could you please explain the calcite filter. What are you using it for???? The reading of 4 1/2 bar might not be the machine gauge. The PLV may be shot. I have seen and tested many new PLV's and they have not been accurate. If you do not have a test gauge to check the PLV against, then I suggest you exchange it for another. Again I strongly advise against the use of hose clamps. If you decide to keep them, turn the machine off after EVERY use. A GENERAL WARNING, any damage caused by self plumbed equipment may not be covered by your insurance company in the event of  flooding. There is a National Plumbing Code that specifies minimum requirments for all thing connected to the water supply. JD
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  • Unknown
    thanks JD sediment removal filter sorry, not calcite. my setup is as follows. tap, pressure limiter, 350 kpa.   non return on/off valve, then john guest line into sediment filter, then chemical filter, then splits t junction into small sink faucet tap for filtered water and also off to espresso machine. Seeing as my machine is in a as new condition and 12 months old I assume it must be the pressure valve is out. It does restrict it but it is on 4 1/4 bars on the machine. But shots are pulled exactly right, 9 bars roughly as factory preset. My PLV is new,  from the company that supplied me the water filter kit. I will replace it to be safe.  A pain but will do it. I have no choice re a few hose clamps.  I have john guest line on the filters but the line to the machine is already built into the wall from 12 months ago and cant be replaced.  Its as new teflon/pvc.  good quality. but I had to join the blue john guest line to the teflon line, no choice and the only way is to hose clamp,  that I know off anyway.  I cant afford plumbers all the time,  saying that I was advised by them to use hose clamps.       I asked 3 for solutions, and also my local plumbing store.   All suggested hose clamps. its not a long long term setup ,but maybe 12 months. No leaks but I understand your warning.  If we go out I am turning it off. I have a simple washing machine gate valve for on off. Its a new model with a half turn shut off. But under sink so I guess I wish I didnt have too. I have re checked my flow rate from the machine and its about 2 and half litres a minute but it still shows 4 1/4 to 4 1/2 kpa. Thankyou for the advice. I am at least glad to have the sediment filter protecting my machine. its great having to not top up the tank anymore. cheers MARC
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  • Unknown
    MARC saw your letter thought I would add my opinion. Dont worry too much about hose clamps.  Unavoidable sometimes.  OLD meets new I think. I have had them on my isomac machine for 3 years. No leaks ever.  Too safe check myself I added 2 where I only needed 1.   there is 2 joins on the line now, so I have 4 hose clamps.   I also needed 4 metres, ie .....................a long length of hose and couldnt get braided line anywhere in that length,  well not for a normal price for home use I guess.  plus the water line into the machine is so small a diameter all the plumbing shops didnt have what i needed.  They were hopeless to be honest. The espresso supply co I looked up suggested braided to but it was not practical at all in the length i needed. anyway as I say its not possible always to have the perfect setup so you have to make do.\\ especially in home/older houses. My safety also is a drain in the floor of the kitchen so worst case of a tube inside machine bursting the majority of the water goes into the drain.  messy but not a wipeout. I turn off water when we go away on weekends but daily dont do this as I consider it to impractical. same as you should unplug tvs etc during a storm blah blah... I see someone said hose clamps were yesterday news but tell your plumber or hardware shop owner when asking for hose for an espresso machine.  3 out of 4 suggest hose clamps.  I know as I tried. looked into john guest but my plumbing supplies only had 2 metre lenth and no joiner for lengths and also it didnt go onto my fitting for the isomac machine which is a slightly bigger diameter. I know for a cafe there is a way around this but for joe smo at home to get a tech out and pay for it all I think you need to find your own way. happy sediment free coffee to all isomac lover
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  • johnjohn
    Marc Not wanting to tread on Keltys' toes, however, I have been around water filtration, espresso machines and hose clips for a long time, I suggest that you turn your tap off after every use. JD
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  • FreshCoffee2FreshCoffee2
    Hi John,. I'll SECOND that. In the last 15 years my business has  suffered three such floods of which two have been very expensive and cost the insurance company dearly. Every day and every night I double check that power has been turned off at powerpoint and water at the tap (to the espresso machine in the training room), and vice versa in the morning. It is second nature...you never forget. It's the last thing you do before locking the door. Goodluck, FC.
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  • johnjohn
    FC I agree with you On another point, re the insurance. Strongly suggest that self-installers check to see if they are covered in the event of a flood?????????????? You might be surprised, you may not be. JD
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  • Unknown
    Hello to JD,  FC and others A question re turning water to machines off. I have a machine which I plumbed in at home about 6 months ago I turn off the water most of the time Im out, not all. I have a drain in my kitchen floor so wont totaly wreck the joint. My questions is what actually bursts and floods. ??? Is it the lines inside the machine ??   My tubing to the machine is very secure ??  Inside my machine there are teflon lines and copper, but Im told its built like a tank and will not burst flood etc. Isomac millenium. I also lose the water to my filtered tap when I turn the water off so the family never use it much as they never no if its on or off as I turn it on so many times. anyway in your experience what gives way or bursts ??? any particular brand of machine leak more ????? I too have the DREADED HOSE clamp on 2 spots and also have no choice, but have now put a second clamp on too back up any chance of line bursting /?? I can only assume inside my machine must give way, but since I have a pressure reducer to 350 kpa the pressure isnt that astounding to blow a line.  a dribble maybe but do the lines actually burst in the machine ???????????????? or does the boiler leak ??  copper ??  teflon ??  valves ??? thanks to those actually in the industry for their advice, like a few other posts on these forums there seems to be so many experts recently re coffee,  machines ?? water ??     roasting ??  one shop up from me sells machines and beans and is full of 18 year olds with a sign outside saying established 2003.  Not putting them down,,, but saying we know it all. ISOMACS are the BEST etc...  I bought my machine there, I know realize they are not that knowledgable at all in the coffee area. ted
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  • johnjohn
    Ted Good to see you are enjoying the forum posts. The weakest link is always any join. If you are using hose clamps, apart from turning the taps of after each use, it is also a good idea from time to time check to that the clamps are tight. Over time they can come a little loose. If the machine is capable of being plumbed in then the internals should be OK. If you have any doubts about the machine, then suggest you contact the supplier. Regards John
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  • ThomasThomas
    G'day All, Sorry for dragging up an old post, hopefully people are still watching. I am trying to work out the best way to plumb in my San Marino CKX from the filters already under the kitchen sink. I would like to run a JG line under the bench top, through the wall hopefully with a small solid fitting so that it is easy to disconnect when needed. and then a nice braided hose into the machine more for looks than anything. I have to look into it but can you get a 90 deg connector to put behind the tiles on the wall? If I do it this way do I still have to turn it off every time? It to me a while to stop the leaks in the filter setup but it's on all the time without any problems now. Thanks for your help, Thomas
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