Roasting depths

Lacehim · August 2012

Hi,

I've found the bean swap to be a very interesting experience. I received BeanFlying's beans, and they where roasted lighter than mine, and feed back about my beans from SS suggested I roasted darker too. I've been roasting just into rolling second crack and dumping to cool for a while now.

Now to quote BF, he said "I generally don't go near RSC unless I am looking for espresso roasts"

So I was hoping to from now trying something a little different with my roasts, to try varying the depth of roast and see what I like/dislike.

Out of interest what depth are others roasting to and what are you roasting for, ie espresso etc.

shape_shifter · August 2012

At present I roast for espresso. I generally hear the first cracks of more than one bean hitting second crack, wait approximately 30 seconds and then hit cool, my hit cool on the Behmor is to hit the cool button and open the door for two minutes, I then close the door and let it run the cool through to the end. When I was using my popper I did the same thing, wait 30 seconds after first crack and then hit cool, which was no heat and push the fan as high as it goes, it used to take two minutes maximum to get to 40 degrees. I plan on doing a roast for syphon shortly and that I will let go until two minutes after first crack and then hit cool, this will be the first time I've done a syphon roast on the Behmor so will be interesting to see if it works or not and if I need to shorten the time to just after first crack. I forgot to add the times, most of mine go to 16 minutes maximum, I find that any longer and they lose flavour. I post a photo of the comparison between the roast of the Toffee bean I did yesterday to the syphon I'll do today.

UNM · August 2012

my 'normal' roast has been approx 16 minutes. first crack around 12, pulled at start of second crack, give or take. have also done a few just on first snaps of first crack for cold process and 1 to 2 mins into first crack works with some beans for aeropress. cooling is to hit eject and then back and forth between cooling tray and sieve in front of a fan to remove chaff. cooling takes about 2 mins.

Koffee_Kosmo · August 2012

I roast to depth based on the brew method The 2 brew methods I use most are 1) Espresso & 2) Greek/Turkish style I also categorize the depth of the roast I will do based on the region and if the beans at soft or hard For espresso style and depending on the bean itself as noted above I roast to my magic trifecta First & Light roast - is just to the start of SC Second & Middle roast - is up to 30 seconds into SC but well before rolling SC Third & Dark roast - this is to rolling SC and will show an oil sheen in the first couple of days For Greek/Turkish style I will use the first light roast noted above but it's the darkest I would go I generaly go to the midway point to three quarter point past FC & SC This light roast style is normaly great when I revisit my occasional syphon tastings KK

Ronin · August 2012

I ve been roasting to around the first snaps of second crack for most, but for the hard beans I'll take a bit longer to get there. First crack somewhere between 11 and 14 min and second starting between 14 and 18 min. I'd suggest trying different roast times but same roast depth for beans also Lacehim, just to throw another variable in. Just remember to enjoy it. I was suffering analysis overload with most things coffee and was not enjoying it anymore. I removed all the computer tracking, special timers etc and now just watch the temp and time and feel/smell & look of the coffee. Much more enjoyable for me.

on 1344821178:

So I was hoping to from now trying something a little different with my roasts, to try varying the depth of roast and see what I like/dislike.

Best part of home roasting, quoted right there. Good luck Lacehim

beanflying · August 2012

Should just explain a little more on

I generally don't go near RSC unless I am looking for espresso roasts

in that I like a balanced coffee with sufficient acid and good flavour balance to go with milk which is my more 'normal' espresso based beverage. For straight Espresso I tend to find coffees roasted at this can tend toward being to acidic to my taste so roasting a little further helps a bit. This is not a universal rule as beans vary. BUT Take it to far and you start losing some of the good flavours and you produce monoflavoured boring coffees. Currently drinking a lovely roast that will be somewhere about 1 minute past FC and it tastes great as a Siphon unlike those who would try and serve it as Espresso in certain places in Melbourne and Sydney. Sucking on sour Espresso is not my idea of a good time. :pan

shape_shifter · August 2012

Here is a photo of the two I spoke about. Espresso roast - The Toffee was taken to 40 seconds after second crack. Total time was 16 minutes, which possibly is too long, I would like to shorten it by a few minutes. Syphon roast - The Black Pearl was taken to a minute after I was hearing a lot of first cracks, which was actually 2 minutes after I heard the very first crack of a bean. Total time was 11 and a half minutes.

hazbean · August 2012

Most of my roasts are done just to the point of getting a few snaps of 2C (usually as the beans eject). On my Quest this means ejecting with the BT thermometer a little under 220 (a little over will send it into 2C). So, depending on the effect I want, this means ejecting at 217, 218 or 219. The time taken to get there depends on profile -- my faster profile finishes in 12 - 13 minutes ( eg 240g Harrar last weekend 8:30 1C 12:30 finish 219C), up to 16:00 or so with a slower profile. More recently as I've become more adept at driving the Quest (I don't use any software, just use three thermometers, colour and smell), I've started to try to find a profile for much lighter roasting with a much lower eject temp but maintaining enough development. For this one the finish temp will be less than 210 eg last week 200g Black Pearl (coincidentally SS!) went through yellow at 4:35, 1C at 8:55 and finished at 11:55 (208C). This is coming along quite nicely.

mycuppa · August 2012

Folks, external color is but 1 of the indicators of roast depth. A more appropriate validation involves inspection of the ground coffee. Just like any food, the external appearance can look OK, but it's what has occurred during the "cooking" process that determines the depth. Defects such as internal or external scorching hide more serious problems that can be assessed via the grounds.

shape_shifter · August 2012

I do remember our conversation about the grinds telling more, I'll put those shots up when it comes to drinking time, Neil recommended a three week wait for the Black Pearl ???

UNM · August 2012

on 1344857415:

Folks, external color is but 1 of the indicators of roast depth. A more appropriate validation involves inspection of the ground coffee. Just like any food, the external appearance can look OK, but it's what has occurred during the "cooking" process that determines the depth. Defects such as internal or external scorching hide more serious problems that can be assessed via the grounds.

You might notice I included pics of my bean swap beans as whole beans and ground coffee, alongside one of my roasts for reference. See - some of us do pay attention.

derrilex · August 2012

on 1344857415:

Folks, external color is but 1 of the indicators of roast depth. A more appropriate validation involves inspection of the ground coffee. Just like any food, the external appearance can look OK, but it's what has occurred during the "cooking" process that determines the depth. Defects such as internal or external scorching hide more serious problems that can be assessed via the grounds.

Fancy giving us a lesson on what to look for in ground coffee Jeff ? :thumb:

Lacehim · August 2012

on 1344860581:

Fancy giving us a lesson on what to look for in ground coffee Jeff ? :thumb:

I too would appreciate it or has this been discussed on the forum before?

shape_shifter · August 2012

Lacehim this was a big conversation in chat we had one Sunday afternoon I think, when Jeff was having a rare break

It was something I then used to add to my blog and started taking photos of my grinds as well as my roasts.

Lacehim · August 2012

Lost in chat

One of the downsides of a chat box eh. Well maybe if Jeff, or anyone else who was in on the chat could post up that info here that would be great. At least then it would be here permanently and we could all learn from it.

derrilex · August 2012

Surely one the computer eggheads would have copied and paste that section of chat into a nice little doc and then put it on the forum ? :laugh:

C-man · August 2012

I would be very interested as well.

beanflying · August 2012

on 1344936911:

Surely one the computer eggheads would have copied and paste that section of chat into a nice little doc and then put it on the forum ? :laugh:

It's been done before for other reasons ::). However no reason not to cut and paste a section out of the chat box to the forum or better yet boot each other in the bum and create or add to a thread :thumb: Re a bit more on the "Roast Depth" a few recent commercial blends I have been enjoying were fairly dark and oily but still had plenty of flavours going on too. External colour is only one guide as to how they are roasted on the inside

derrilex · August 2012

Those with the knowledge must start the thread :D :D

C-man · August 2012

sometimes I see light spots in the grind?

Koffee_Kosmo · August 2012

on 1345018104:

sometimes I see light spots in the grind?

That could be some husk that is left over at the centre of bean

Rider · August 2012

on 1344832315:

Just remember to enjoy it. I was suffering analysis overload with most things coffee and was not enjoying it anymore. I removed all the computer tracking, special timers etc and now just watch the temp and time and feel/smell & look of the coffee. Much more enjoyable for me.

I think this is a wonderful paragraph. The only thing missing which I am sure Ronin also means is what is in the cup. It is so easy to get paralysis by analysis. As so many much more learned people than me have said many times in the past, it is a 'feel' thing. I think Ronin's summation also covers mycuppa's observations on being one dimensional. I have been through the same path as Ronin. Now it is temp, time, look, feel, smell; without feeling of course. :laugh: That may hurt. And it is able to be repetitive over time. Having said all that, we do espresso, therefore the roast depth is indicative of espresso. Short of 2nd crack is not for espresso; certainly not espresso with milk. Rider

hazbean · August 2012

On the subject of inspecting the ground coffee. One thing that made me think about this a while ago was a passing comment in Instaurator's "Espresso Quest" about always looking for a colour difference between external colour and ground colour. He mentioned a number of Agtron units difference that he looked for in a good roast, but I can't remember the number and I can't look it up as my copy has gone wandering. It may have been 20, but that's quite a difference. After a roast I break some beans open and look for a gradation in colour inside, not just the same colour as outside all the way through.

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