My first KKTO Roast - Peru Ceja de Selva Estate

ericshum · September 2012

Hi Guys,

I am looking at having a go at my first roast soon. I've got a KKTO built but it hasn't got any insulation or thermocouples yet.

I currently have a 2.5kg bag of Peru Ceja de Selva Estate which I bought a while ago. Should I proceed you think? Any guidelines I can follow?

Cheers,
EricS

Koffee_Kosmo · September 2012

Insulation can be wrapped on the outside if need be However if you choose to roast without any start with smaller amounts of say 400 gr Thermocouple is not needed KK

GaryatGala · September 2012

Well done Eric, :thumb: I use a halogen oven, which is good for observing the beans. You can use fire blankets wrapped around the pot secured by wire, or towels, wrapped and held by pegs. Try 500gms so that you get 5 roasts out of the 2.5 kg bag. Pre-heat to 200deg celcius for 10 minutes, then start the motor and put in the beans. Start a timer. turn heat to full ( this may indicate 250 on the dial). Note the time to first crack. Leave heat on full on your first roast and note the time between first and start of second crack. Burp the oven by lifting it up slightly a few times to let heat our during first crack so that you get a nice roasting curve. The gap should be at least 4 minutes. A good gap is 6-8 minutes for the Peru. If it is too short a gap, next time, turn the dial down to 225 and then note. Have you made your own bean cooler? Cooling beans down quickly is important. Roasting is great fun. Plus you can enjoy your own results.

GaryatGala · September 2012

Forgot to say that time to start of first crack is generally in the11-14 minute ballpark. Let us know how you went.

ericshum · September 2012

Hi Gary, thanks for the tips. I gave it a go but I think I burnt it. Here's what I noticed while roasting: - Beans start to brown around 9min mark (that is all I could notice) - I could not hear the first crack as the agitation of the beans was very loud (just with the blade slightly rubbing against the pot) What I did was: 1) Preheat at 200dC for 10 mins 2) 250dC for 11mins and start burping it (I could not hear the cracks, so I just made a guess that I had to do it at this point) 3) By the 14th minute it started to smoke a lot. I just stopped the heat at the 16th minute and it was all burnt (greasy and very dark)

ericshum · September 2012

Images of the KKTO. Note that my cooling solution is poor. Are there any links I could read on cooling and how fast it needs to be and at what temp I could start storing the roasted beans away?

Jonty · September 2012

G'day Eric I'm no guru when it comes to cooling beans but my understanding is the quicker the better - you want to stop the reactions!! Not a close up photo but if you can get a 20Ltr pale from Bunnings (say $10-12) & a ceiling fan ($20-25) and locate a sieve of some description you can make a simple bean cooler for under $50.

Lacehim · September 2012

on 1348989869:

Hi Gary, thanks for the tips. I gave it a go but I think I burnt it.

Any photos EricS? My tip is to try them anyway, see what you think.

on 1348989869:

I could not hear the first crack as the agitation of the beans was very loud (just with the blade slightly rubbing against the pot)

How many grams are you roasting? I only preheat to thaw if I'm doing 300gms (so I end up with 250gm bag), and I preheat to 200 if I'm doing 500 or 600gms. In regards to your agitator you need it to be just off the bottom of the pot but not so high that beans jam under it. KK uses a spring on his and I have to admit since switching to his twin agitator with springs the noise was cut right down. Forget burping at this stage, it will just complicate things. You'll get smoke around 1st and 2nd Crack which is a helpful indicator. Just don't stress, take it easy and relax. Preheat, put it up to 250degC when you put you're green in, the beans will change colour (use a torch if you have too). You'll hear the snaps around 9-12mins usually, but you'll have to listen carefully (just don't burn your ear on the TO!!!!). After 1mins or so I turn the temp down to 220degC for around a minute, and then back up to 250degC, and pull it when you hear 2C snaps. The best helpful info I ever had in regards to roasting was to relax, and KISS (from KK & AM). I don't use thermocouples, just my eyes, ears and my mouth (used for drinking the beer while I relax while roasting). Also where are you EricS? Someone might be close enough to you to pop in and talk you through a roast. EDIT: for a cheap and easy cooler, I used a big cardboard box with an old toilet fan (I cleaned it first) that has a standard power point (put the fan on the side). Cut a hole in the top and I used the sieve that came with the pasta pot. Works fine, and lasted well over a year! You just need to cool the beans down quickly, and when you can touch them, you can bag em.

ericshum · September 2012

Thanks Lacehim. I started with 400grams of green thinking I could do 6 batches. Yeah, I should go get the spring. I have a twin agigator (not from KKTO though). Just got it made by a friend in Malaysia. I am in Melbourne. I would usually roast at a mate's place in Nunawading. Anyone in Victoria care to guide us through on the next roast? Or even try my roast out in the next 3-5days - suggest by zane? It's a dark roast, that's for sure, but I'm not a 100% if it is not burnt. I'm thinking on my next roast, do like Lacehim suggested, thaw for preheat and around 9-11mins drop heat to 220dC for a minute and back up to 250dC and perhaps pull at 14mins (instead of 16mins) using my eyes to gauge that it's just somewhat nicely browned? I am still doubting if I can pick up the first and second cracks. As with the cooler, my mate's trying to get it built but just roasting outside today at 16dC, it cools down very quickly once the beans are out of the pot on a baking tray. My bigger problem is with getting them out of the pot. I probably need a vac solution as the shaft we made had the key screwed in using grub screws as opposed to it being a key-keyhole solution. It takes quite a long time trying to undo the grub screws to pull the shaft out, following that pour the beans out.

ericshum · September 2012

I forgot to mention, Lacehim. Picture (roasted Peru) attached on the fourth post.

Koffee_Kosmo · September 2012

As long as its been built to KKTO speck then - Don't be shy or afraid to give large 600/700 gr roast a try I feel that it's your agitation at fault, the blades purpose is to mix and tumble the beans not push them around the roast chamber Here is my build instructions of an easy cooler build - Its called the Cosmic Cooler https://docs.google.com/present/view?id=dc5qt26s_35hsjvv9gh KK

ericshum · September 2012

KK, you're right, it does look like the blades are pushing and there is only very little tumbling of beans going on in the pot. As with whether it was built to KKTO spec, I can't be too sure, especially with the agitator blade. I could only make a guess on the profile. I probably posted a few drawings in my other thread when asking for help and advice when I was trying to gather the parts to build it. I'll bend the blades a little more (more S-like), lift it higher and put the springs in and speed up the agitation. Probably would make it tumble I was running on low speed on the motor that I've got. I'm almost tempted to get thermocouples and post the profile up, but then again, my biggest weakness here is in identifying first and second cracks. I'll see if I can pick it up on my next roast. I only heard 'small cracks' from time to time (every second or 2) and it's not a continuous (group of) crack(s) going off.

Koffee_Kosmo · September 2012

Have a look at this video for reference on agitation http://m.youtube.com/?reload=3&rdm=mazohc6ly#/watch?feature=relmfu&v=X_ewkisDF5o Do you have false floor ? to have the optimum roaster volume KK

ericshum · October 2012

Hi Guys, here are some results of our second attempt on the Peru CdS: - Batch size = 500gm - Preheat temp / duration = 220dC / 10mins - TO temp for roasting = 250dC - Time to first crack = 11:15. This was based on a guess from colour and the fact that the beans started smoking. Couldn't hear a thing. Similar issues with previous roast - mechanical noise from motor, contact of agitator against base of strainer, sound being damped by TO lid on silicone tube. - At 11:45, we dropped the heat to 220dC based on Lacehim's suggestion. I panicked a little and did it too early. Should've done it at 12:15. - At 12:45, the heat was increased back to 250dC. - At 14:30, (heat source and) beans were removed. As soon as the TO was taken off from the top we could hear the beans popping. Could not tell if this was from first crack or second crack (I doubt it's second crack). Cooling: - The beans were cooled using 2 strainers, pouring from one to another. We couldn't find a stand fan. Temp outside was around 12dC anyway, within minutes the beans were cooled enough to touch. Results: - The roast was lighter than what we wanted to achieve (much lighter than Ewan's). - The beans were not evenly roasted as well. Had to pick out some 20 beans which had the colour similar to a peanut. Considerations for the next roast (one or a combination of the following list): a) Preheat to 250dC (instead of 220dC); b) Don't drop the heat at all or drop the heat slightly later (perhaps around 12:15 or 12:30); c) Pull only later, at about 15:00 or 15:30. d) Other mods to TO to provide: - i) A better agitation (spring mod / increase of motor speed) - ii) False floor for a smaller roasting chamber - iii) Temperature sensors Any comments would be much appreciated.

Koffee_Kosmo · October 2012

By the colour I don't feel that it has reached second crack Questions I need to ask What is the overall volume of the roast chamber Speed of the agitator RPM KK

ericshum · October 2012

Overall volume is estimated to be 10.6 litres (excluding dome). So 11 litres would be a good approximation. I've checked the dimensions of the liner, and unfortunately, it would not fit in the 'outer' pot. From the previously thread, I noticed your recommendation of a maximum roast volume of 9 litres.

ericshum · October 2012

I'll estimate the RPM of the agitator the next time I have a look at it. Or I'll get my friend to do it. The KKTO is at his place.

Koffee_Kosmo · October 2012

on 1349519161:

I'll estimate the RPM of the agitator the next time I have a look at it. Or I'll get my friend to do it. The KKTO is at his place.

Normally anything between 50 RPM to 70 RPM is a good speed

on 1349519094:

Overall volume is estimated to be 10.6 litres (excluding dome). So 11 litres would be a good approximation. I've checked the dimensions of the liner, and unfortunately, it would not fit in the 'outer' pot. From the previously thread, I noticed your recommendation of a maximum roast volume of 9 litres.

Yes 9 litres including the dome But if you want to just measure roast chamber aim for 7 to 8 litres At 11 litres you should reduce your green bean load to 450 gr or less for controllable results I can't stress enough how important the volume is to the design KK

ericshum · October 2012

Yea. Probably 400gm's like what we did at our first go would just do the trick with same roast times. We'll give that another shot tomorrow maybe. Thanks KK.

ericshum · October 2012

Another batch today of the Peru CdS today. - Batch size = 400gm - Preheat temp / duration = 220dC / 10mins - TO temp for roasting = 250dC - Time to first crack = 11:10 (another guess). - At 12:10, we dropped the heat to 220dC. - At 13:10, the heat was increased back to 250dC. - At 14:15, (heat source and) beans were removed. Results: A slightly darker roast as compared to yesterday. Beans were still unevenly roasted (across entire batch and on individual beans). Some spots are darker than others on a single bean. The only difference was the batch size and a different agitator blade used. A taller blade with larger gap in the middle was used. Video of dry run:

Motor RPM = ~53rpm As usual, any comments would be good. I'll taste them in a week's time and compare the lighter to the darker one. Will be pulling an espresso to try it. Might just coarse grind and cup it as well. Bought a Breville BCG800 Smart Grinder recently as my BES860 has been sent for repair.

Koffee_Kosmo · October 2012

You don't need to drop the heat unless the roast needs to be slowed to second crack Another way is to add air by lifting the TO Add some red or coloured beans to the agitator test video for easier perusal of the mixing action However by the look of it it's pushing the bean mass a little KK

ericshum · October 2012

KK, more test videos here: http://www.youtube.com/user/cikay11 I have also attached in this thread the images (front and top view) of the 2 agitator blades we have.

Koffee_Kosmo · October 2012

I have uploaded a photo of my agitator in the pot so you can see the relative bend and clearance to the side wall Have viewed the videos and still pushing compared to optimum agitation Attachment not found.Attachment not found.Attachment not found.

GaryatGala · October 2012

i can also offer a few tips. Do try a bigger batch from 500gm upwards. With a long handled latte or ice coffee spoon, bend the spoon so that you got yourself a sampling tool. Drop the heat to 220 deg on the dial as soon as first crack starts. From this stage, it needs your full attention and note down the smoke and smells along the way. Take lots of notes. I keep a diary and note down the ambient temperature, type of beans used, the length of time taken to roast etc When it's one minute after first crack ends, quickly lift the lid and take out a few beans with the spoon and inspect. Then put beans back in and close lid asap. Do this every 30 seconds. This act will burp the roast and stop it from running away from you. Before second crack starts, it will start to smoke a lot. Use this cue to finalize inspection of the beans and expect the first few snaps of second crack to commence soon. Usually the balance of bean and roast character is achieved somewhere before second crack. I've had good results before right to the first few snaps of second crack. Have had good results too right into the middle of second crack, which is dark espresso territory. Dump and cool beans. Keep roasting, take notes and roast some more. Darker, lighter. This way you will achieve better results and you will find what your palate prefers. I agree with KK that looking at your vid the beans are being pushed around, thus achieving uneven roasting. Have a look at this vid i made. Hope it will help you.

UNM · October 2012

Just looking at the shape of the agitator, it seems beans would slip through the large hole in it. You may want to block that off and angle it so the beans cascade over the top. That is, however, pure guesswork. Easy enough to try variations on agitation without any heat until you get a good mix going. Chuck a couple of coloured beans in and you will see what is going on more clearly (think that was already mentioned earlier).

ericshum · October 2012

Thanks for the video Gary. Will try the spoon and inspect method, that will definitely help. At least I have the Peru roasted by UNM to compare against. Thanks for that, Ewan. I've got 2 batches of a light roast of the Peru CdS. On my next roast, I'll attempt to get it just up to second crack. As with doing a larger batch, KK was advising against it as my roast volume is about 11litres which is more than the optimal 9 litre volume.

ericshum · October 2012

Another roast done today: Batch size = 400gm Ambient Temp ~14dC Preheated at 250dC for 5mins then 220dC for another 5mins Motor speed = 105 rpm (almost twice the speed of previous roast) Agitator mod performed Removed silicone tube between outer pot and strainer - turns out that the silicone tube was not allowing the strainer to sit properly on the pot - no temp sensors but could feel that the pot heats up much faster. Time to first crack = ~10:00 Constantly lifted the top of inspect roast and to pick up a few beans (this was at about every 30 sec interval). Heat kept at 250dC all the way. Second crack started at about 15:45 and we pulled. Results were more closely matched with UNM's roast in terms of colour of beans. The beans were more evenly roasted (but still not ideal), probably due to the centrifugal force of the rotation pushing the beans out from the centre. We're thinking of varying the speed to utilize the centrifugal force at high speeds to swing the beans out from the centre and then slowing it down to let beans tumble down.

ericshum · October 2012

Tasting notes: *My palate's not trained to tell what they taste like and I could only compare one roast to another* I only compared espressos as I don't take milk Benchmark: Ewan's roast performed using a hottop on 03/10/2012 1) Roast date (06/10/2012 - this was the first roast after visiting Ewan, 500gm with First crack @ 11:45 and pulled at 14:30) - a very light roast - Call this Roast 1: - For some reason all I tasted just 'sour' and it felt very light. Got another friend to taste it as well. He said the same thing. I would deem this undrinkable (very dilute and not much flavour). 2) Roast date (07/10/2012 - this was the second roast after visiting Ewan, 400gm with First crack @ 11:15 and pulled at 14:15) - a darker roast than Roast 1 but still lighter than Ewan's roast - Call this Roast 2: - There is still the acidic taste with this coffee but there was more flavour around the palate. Probably could taste other 'notes' but I can't describe them. There's also more body to it. Crema of the coffee looks 'nicer'. I would deem this drinkable. Ewan's roast (Benchmark) - Has a more well rounded taste for some reason and not as 'sour' as Roast 2. Can anyone explain why this is the case? Does a darker roast, in general, have a more well rounded taste with a heavier body?

Koffee_Kosmo · October 2012

on 1350127923:

Tasting notes: *My palate's not trained to tell what they taste like and I could only compare one roast to another* I only compared espressos as I don't take milk Benchmark: Ewan's roast performed using a hottop on 03/10/2012 1) Roast date (06/10/2012 - this was the first roast after visiting Ewan, 500gm with First crack @ 11:45 and pulled at 14:30) - a very light roast - Call this Roast 1: - For some reason all I tasted just 'sour' and it felt very light. Got another friend to taste it as well. He said the same thing. I would deem this undrinkable (very dilute and not much flavour). 2) Roast date (07/10/2012 - this was the second roast after visiting Ewan, 400gm with First crack @ 11:15 and pulled at 14:15) - a darker roast than Roast 1 but still lighter than Ewan's roast - Call this Roast 2: - There is still the acidic taste with this coffee but there was more flavour around the palate. Probably could taste other 'notes' but I can't describe them. There's also more body to it. Crema of the coffee looks 'nicer'. I would deem this drinkable. Ewan's roast (Benchmark) - Has a more well rounded taste for some reason and not as 'sour' as Roast 2. Can anyone explain why this is the case? Does a darker roast, in general, have a more well rounded taste with a heavier body?

Yes The reason is a light roast is suited to a different brew method and brew temp as well as steep time affect it A roast that has reached second crack is suited to fast extraction and lower heat such as espresso Having said that a light roast is still suitable for espresso style but a three times longer rest time/ degas is recommended Is all to do with the volatile oils and there relationship with the notes I made above KK

ericshum · October 2012

This is our fourth roast of the Peru CdS (14/10/2012): Batch size = 400gm First crack @ ~10:00 - 10:30 At 12:00, we dropped the heat to 220dC At 13:00, burped and inspected beans At 14:00, burped, inspected beans and increased temp back to 250dC Could hear the second crack even after lifting the TO and pulled at 16:00 as we noted a slight sheen. We suspect that second crack occurred and we didnt hear it? Would we see any sheen before the occurrence of second crack? We're happy with the overall colour and the roast was quite even. Roast colour closely matched Ewan's roast. Can't wait to taste it next week.

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