Can you taste it?

Kelsey · August 2013

Doing a bit of dreaming here, planning a far future upgrade to some ridiculous bit of kit...

Right now I'm still using the Smart Grinder. For those of you who've seen my extraction thread, you know it's more than capable of pulling out a proper ristretto. With my tamping technique, channelling doesn't seem to be an issue.

While dreaming of the next upgrade, it occurred to me how easy it is to go incrementally from something fairly straightforward to a truly outrageous piece of equipment for the home. For example:

$700 gets you a Vario, reportedly great taste and grind, bit messy, prone to loosening up.... so $300 or so more gets you...

$1100 gets you a Mini Mazzer E - rock solid, bigger burrs, bigger everything, the stalwart.... but $300 or so more gets you...

$1400 gets you a Super Jolly E - basically a bigger Mini, but it grinds sooooo much faster.... but for a few hundred more you get....

$1900 gets you a K8 Fresh - big flat burrs, great styling, it's HUGE.... but....

You get the idea. Suddenly you've gone from thinking of buying a Vario to thinking a Kony's on the cards - all with little incremental leaps that add up enormously.

But can you taste it?

I haven't had the chance to directly compare my Smart Grinder with (say) a Mazzer Mini, shot for shot, with my machine and my beans. I'd really love to be able to run that comparison one of these days. Blind taste tests.

Will the difference between the Smart and the Mazzer be that great? And after that, would the difference between a Mini E and a (say) a K10 Fresh be out of this world? You'd want it to be for a nearly $2K difference in price...

There's always the compulsion to upgrade, but if the taste difference is minimal, what's the point?

Koffee_Kosmo · August 2013

Yes I can taste the difference in all the grinders I have used The big conical I currently own is the best so far for flavour definition KK

Lacehim · August 2013

And just remember the grind retention on those bigger are always better grinders.

Personally for a domestic arrangement like yourself I would go a HG One for around 1k, with big conical burr quality and no grind retention! I'm putting that on my christmas list for sure! :coffee2:

Koffee_Kosmo · August 2013

on 1375960923:

And just remember the grind retention on those bigger are always better grinders. Personally for a domestic arrangement like yourself I would go a HG One for around 1k, with big conical burr quality and no grind retention! I'm putting that on my christmas list for sure! :coffee2:

That's actually a good suggestion :thumb: KK

galumay · August 2013

HG-One is the best grinder I have owned, I sold my K-10 within weeks of buying the HG-One, its the best large conical grinder for the home user in my opinion. Partnered with a Lever its sublime!

Brett H · August 2013

I bought his K10 within weeks of him getting the HG-One. I love that he got the HG because I got the K10 and yes I can taste the difference. I ran side by sides with a lux (a real one with an Italian burr set), 50mm, 64mm, 83mm and yes I do own all these grinders and no, I'm not allowed ever again to occupy that much bench space. By the time I dialled everything in I was completely over the whole exercise. A waste of beans and holiday time honestly. Of course they all have their quirks, of course the better ones are faster and better and of course the difference between the Lux and the A8 or k10 was not a $2k difference. Sure I can taste the difference but sometimes different isn't better, it's just different. My ludicrous vote is for the HG-One because I know you and you like me won't stop until you have a big conical. The difference is you might get there without collecting a shed full of grinders.

mycuppa · August 2013

Having used possibly every single grinder made in the last 15 years (except the HG1) I have formed the opinion that it's not about the taste but more about how the grinder helps you achieve consistency, e.g. More forgiving or accurate so that you can replicate shots back to back hour after hour. Currently, I am playing with a La Marzocco Volcano which looks like many of its parts we're lifted from a Mazzer Robur E. I have not yet had a chance to research the background on the volcano but I can tell you that having one sit side by side with a Robur E the shots are different (and it's not just in my head, others agree). So far the LMV is proving to be a pleasant surprise package. Perhaps the real watershed moment for me personally was a K10 many years ago. The quiet, fast, clean way it would crunch through 15+ kilos a day, every day was just amazing. Consistency was rock solid and would only waver when the conicals were worn down too far. With a k3 next to a m7 and k10 in the factory, the coffees from the k3 are simply stunning. Most of the time I throw a handful of beans into the k3 and free dose because I'm in a rush and it's more convenient. In testing 5 or 6 different coffees every day I would be just as happy to have a group of k3's as it is all I need. The conicals are just for speed when I need to make 4+ coffees in a hurry.

Janlab · August 2013

Having just researched this topic, and not even with the taste experience, I have gone through the same thought process, very tempting, but the price increments... They stack up very quickly! I finally have ordered a Pharos to start with, since they are available again. The HG One came close, such a beautifull piece of kit, but that will be the first upgrade. Hopefully the taste will develope to get the same experience voiced above. The local roaster said exactly the same as Jeff. Sorry, maybe a bit off topic, but still relevant. Meanwhile I am still looking for a good pre owned electric. JL

C-man · August 2013

If I had the choice and the money For home use I would have a big single manual lever and an HG1

UNM · August 2013

I am a home user, not running a business so consistency is not a commercial requirement. Personally, I cannot taste the difference. Why? Never owned any of those grinders, probably never will. You know what? I don't miss what I've never had. Mycuppa's comments are interesting. If all a different grinder offers is better consistency, it is of little interest to me as a home user who enjoys variety and changes beans every few days anyway. Certainly, if I wanted every cup of coffee to be exactly the same, things would be different. Many people do like that and unexpected change is unpleasant for them. Sometimes I expect to pull a right ristretto and get something closer to a normal espresso, then taste it and am pleasantly surprised (or occasionally chuckoit and try again). Reading your post, I think you have a mild case of affluenza, but are aware of it as you realize all those incremental steps add up to serious expense that will ultimately leave you still feeling dissatisfied. Does your current gear produce coffee you enjoy with enough complexity to please your palate? Do you have a requirement to improve consistency or speed? Perhaps further expense is unnecessary?

derrilex · August 2013

I'm happy with my eureka and the only thing I can regularly compare it too is KK's set up. Yes the coffee is different at KK's using my beans but I believe that is the lever, not so much the grinder. One way to find out I guess. The coffee at KK's is great. Is it better than mine ? IMO nope, just different. Now if I can just modify the eureka get rid of the grind retention. :D

SniffCoffee · August 2013

on 1375994476:

If I had the choice and the money For home use I would have a big single manual lever and an HG1

Snap! I've had a Eureka Mignon, M4D and now the HG-One. The HG One is perfect for my requirements, it is easy to grind for the two coffees I make every morning. Not so good for entertaining, but still not bad. It's a great partner to my Quickmill Achille and will be my grinder to the grave! Sniff

Kelsey · August 2013

on 1375963971:

My ludicrous vote is for the HG-One because I know you and you like me won't stop until you have a big conical. The difference is you might get there without collecting a shed full of grinders.

Ah, you know me too well....

My taste buds have developed quite a bit since our cupping session with Derrilex and it's got me wondering how much better it can get. The HG-One hasn't made it onto the list so far because I'm massively, massively lazy and I can't possibly imagine the chore of grinding keeping up with my enthusiasm for the results.... :rofl:

derrilex · August 2013

on 1376025633:

Ah, you know me too well.... My taste buds have developed quite a bit since our cupping session with Derrilex and it's got me wondering how much better it can get. The HG-One hasn't made it onto the list so far because I'm massively, massively lazy and I can't possibly imagine the chore of grinding keeping up with my enthusiasm for the results.... :rofl:

Mine are still as unsophisticated as ever - not a hint of green apple but that's ok because choc & nuts is where it's at

Lizzi · August 2013

Started out with a Rocky, then a Carimali... huuuge difference in complexity and balance. Now a M4D...very stable in its grind, for me about the same as the best of the Carimali, when the grind was hitting the right spot. The difference is the ease of use of the M4D: the micro-metric adjustment, the electronic menu allowing single, double, continuous and any weight/time variant of those three, allowing adjustments for age and humidity of the beans at hand.

L

Ronin · August 2013

My grinder history as follows. Isomac Gronmachino Sunbeam cafe series EM 048 Bezerra BB105 Mazzer Kony E Work related Grinders Mazzer SuperJolly doser (current) Mazzer Robur ( E & doser) Would love to try a LM Volcano. I found an improvement in each home grinder. I did a is by side with the Bezzera & Sunbeam with the Bezzera coming out in front cause of the finer adjustments. Sadly the motor burnt out (hence the upgrade) and decided on the big spend to stop the upgradis. Kony out stripped the Sunbeam too FWIW At work I use a Super Jolly doser and find it very slow. Would be even slower for fast service without the doser tho and I can manage it reasonably. I did some training at the roasters place straight after work on Friday. So I went from a San Marino & the jolly to a KVdW mirage & custom Robur combo (timer and doser) the Robur was so much easier to use but I think I was getting better flavours at work, with the same coffee, but I extract it differently. If you have time and want to K, let me know and I might be able to organise to take the Kony E into work so we can have a play, compare with the Jolly, perhaps any other grinder that can be obtained too.. Beans would need to be supplied or paid for tho, and I would need to ask of course. It's near the breaky creek wharf at Newstead.

Kelsey · August 2013

Ronin, that sounds like a plan! I'll bring my BCG800 and the beans. Perhaps we'll even find a way to do some blind taste tests. That's if you can clear it with your work, of course. :thumb: With any luck, it'll be a.... [size=18pt]GRIND OFF!!![/size]

Kelsey · August 2013

In fact, I wonder if there's anyone nearby with a HG-One who'd like to join us and put it up against the rest?

cosmic_couple22 · August 2013

Just purchased a BNZ md74 and have been experimenting pulling shots side by side with the super jolly and the BNZ. Outcome, there is definitely a taste difference in the three different beans I have compared so far. Is one better? that is of varying opinions between Amanda and myself, taste and palate conversations are so subjective and personal, so much so that I can't comment. Does the BNZ bring out a different flavour profile to the super jolly? absolutely. But overall the most noticeable changes are when drinking espressos and some what lessened the greater the volume of milk added. In the end pull a great shot, drink it how you like and enjoy. :coffee2: Chester

Bottom Line · August 2013

Had: Rocky K3 K8 K10 Dogde 83 Major Robur Have had a compare between Major and Rocky, a bit of difference. Slightly more body and complexity. Have compared between Major, Robur and K10. Big difference between the Major and the conicals. Very little if any between the K10 and Robur (taste wise). The conicals produced a bigger softer body. Much more complexity. But I only have my coffee black. The differences may wash out in milk. I lent a K10 to someone who had a Rocky. He bought a K10 the next week. He also only has coffee black. Mycuppa's comments are interesting. May have to compare the K3 side by side with a K10.

Kelsey · August 2013

on 1375968805:

Having used possibly every single grinder made in the last 15 years (except the HG1) I have formed the opinion that it's not about the taste but more about how the grinder helps you achieve consistency, e.g. More forgiving or accurate so that you can replicate shots back to back hour after hour. Currently, I am playing with a La Marzocco Volcano which looks like many of its parts we're lifted from a Mazzer Robur E. I have not yet had a chance to research the background on the volcano but I can tell you that having one sit side by side with a Robur E the shots are different (and it's not just in my head, others agree). So far the LMV is proving to be a pleasant surprise package. Perhaps the real watershed moment for me personally was a K10 many years ago. The quiet, fast, clean way it would crunch through 15+ kilos a day, every day was just amazing. Consistency was rock solid and would only waver when the conicals were worn down too far. With a k3 next to a m7 and k10 in the factory, the coffees from the k3 are simply stunning. Most of the time I throw a handful of beans into the k3 and free dose because I'm in a rush and it's more convenient. In testing 5 or 6 different coffees every day I would be just as happy to have a group of k3's as it is all I need. The conicals are just for speed when I need to make 4+ coffees in a hurry.

Jeff, thanks for this - I'd heard talk of problems with slack in the K3 adjustment mechanism. Have you come across that?

Brett H · August 2013

on 1376277679:

Jeff, thanks for this - I'd heard talk of problems with slack in the K3 adjustment mechanism. Have you come across that?

This was my bug-bear with the K3 and my reason for swapping to the Rocky all those years ago. Rocky without the Teflon has a similar issue but not as bad as the one I had albeit briefly.

mycuppa · August 2013

Can't say I've had any problems yet with my K3's - but they are many years old. There is nothing special about the K3, I just like them because it is easy to free dose - which is the way I always make my coffees - no measurements/weighing......just eyesight and this works perfectly for me. Perhaps the reason I like the K3 is because they are slow at grinding, which makes it easy to pulse on/off to get just the right level of coffee I need for the dose. I do have a lot of problems with my A8 and a couple of K10's occasionally with motor stalling - but I believe there is a simple workaround for these on Compak grinders (including the K10's) by changing the wiring on the capacitors - a job for one day when I have some time.

C-man · December 2013

on 1375961362:

HG-One is the best grinder I have owned, I sold my K-10 within weeks of buying the HG-One, its the best large conical grinder for the home user in my opinion. Partnered with a Lever its sublime!

Galumay- couple of Questions if you don't mind 1. any taste difference between the HG1 and the Pharos? 2. Which burr would you order with the HG1? I think they have 3 to choose from Thanks, I value your opinion C-

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