PID for an S24

C-man · January 2014

Is there ( a PID) one that will work on My S24 Rancillio

All I see is ones for Silvia

Thanks

Naki^chap · January 2014

Hi C man, I think a PID is for single or double boiler machines, yours is an HX so the P-stat controls the brew temp, but I may be wrong

,

Koffee_Kosmo · January 2014

A PID can be fitted to a HX machine Not sure if you need one that works with your electronics ? Or a one for all design will work OK KK

Brett H · January 2014

I think Naki is correct. While there are some HX machines on the market that have a PID retrofitting one is possibly more bother than its worth. Given your technical expertise a Thermosyphon restricter may be an option but given the Rancilio isn't an e-61 I can't be of much help. Anything that reduces the boiler pressure : temperature will affect your steam. If you had too much steam you could just try winding down the pressure stat a bit but once again, you've got yo decide if you want a coffee or a project.

UNM · January 2014

Almost any PID will work fine. Essentially you replace the pstat with a PID/SSR/thermocouple. Simples. A very important question: What are you trying to achieve by installing a PID?

C-man · January 2014

After Old grumpy paid a visit we discovered his shots he made on the Rossa were much better than mine on the S24 mine looked better but using the same beans Mine had a "burnt taste" to the shot I have wound the P-stat down and it is better now but still not as good as his I also do a deep flush before pulling a shot no more "burnt taste" just thought if I had a PID I could control temp better I have my OPV set at 9bar also

thebookfreak58 · January 2014

on 1389235532:

After Old grumpy paid a visit we discovered his shots he made on the Rossa were much better than mine on the S24 mine looked better but using the same beans Mine had a "burnt taste" to the shot I have wound the P-stat down and it is better now but still not as good as his I also do a deep flush before pulling a shot no more "burnt taste" just thought if I had a PID I could control temp better I have my OPV set at 9bar also

As Brett said, a restrictor in the thermosyphon will help with this

UNM · January 2014

Yep, a pid will certainly let you tinker with boiler temperatures more easily than a pstat. Don't expect a five degree variation of boiler temperature to have a five degree variation on shot temperature. Don't expect a boiler that is within one degree of set point temperature to result in shots that are stable to the same one degree. The hx design allows a high boiler temp suitable for milk steaming to produce a suitable head temperature for extraction under pump pressure. The two are related, but flow restrictor and idle times will have an effect on shot temperatures. Multiple back to back shots will modify the influence of flow restrictors. Every model of hx machine behaves slightly differently It is quite likely the Rossa was not actually making espresso, but using lower pressure than a true espresso requires. I am not criticising the outcome, just noting that a well setup espresso machine could be very different in how it behaves. Feel free to try lower pressure extractions. More later as time allows

C-man · January 2014

I do get good shots, just think they could be better like Grumps Rossa If you think his was better because of "Brew pressure" rather than temp, well that is another thing completely. I still have my 1-15 bar gauge I am considering installing it with the dimmer hooked to the pump like I had on the old SB It did work pretty well and I could pressure profile my shots again. I was thinking a Adjustable PID for tweaking temp and keeping it more stable as the 9 bar shots do look good. All Ii know temp wise, is before I checked it in the cup with a milk thermo and it was 96+ so I wound down the P=stat and know it reads about 93 deg. Rough guess with just a milk thermo I know, but it does read lower and has lost the "burnt taste" , just could be better I think.

Lacehim · January 2014

Your also comparing Apples or Oranges. Ol Grumpy is using a different set up and it will product different results, don't necessarily expect to get the same form your HX machine. PID will be a waste of money IMO. Lower your pressurestat and see if that makes a diff, play about with different doses, grind etc.

C-man · January 2014

That is what I have been doing OG just showed me what my beans should taste like.

UNM · January 2014

A dimmer aint going to make a lot of difference to a rotary pump. They have a built in pressure bypass and behave very differently to a vibe pump. The main thing a PID will do is make changing temp (and therefore boiler pressure) a matter of pressing buttons, rather than opening machine and turning a screw. Oh one small warning, a PID/SSR can fail in the ON state, so you will need some means to prevent overheating and damaging your equipment. The overpressure valve will work to a point, but if machine left unattended for any length of time, it could boil dry and then burn out the element. Low risk, but high impact. My little gaggia classic has a thermal fuse as backup. If you do choose to add a PID, I can advise on likely setup. It is not hard, but should be double checked by a second competent person prior to applying electrickery. I'd also ;eave the pstat in place at first and use that to confirm appropriate initial PID temperature setting.

Ol Grumpy · January 2014

Thanks for the compliments C-man... But if I may just add a couple of points. Firstly, it usually takes me a couple or six shots to get dialed in on the grind when trying out a new bean. That being said, I have found that after 500gms or so I feel like I am starting to get to know the bean and the shots steadily improve accordingly. We never had the time to get to know the beans that well on Sunday, but it was lots of fun trying. (I'm glad caffeine can't be read on a breathalyser... I'd have 'blown' the bag... Big time) Also, don't underestimate the pressure the Rossa can comfortably extract at. It can easily (very easily) do a 9bar extraction. I'm quite sure when I've choked it I've nudged well and truly over 12 bar... But, following Ross Spencer's advice, I've also found much better flavours at around the six'ish bar extraction. I don't bother with the pressure gauge, because the cup tells me everything I want to know. But I'm also an Anahl pedant so I might just get a gauge to pique my own curiosity.... I also tried checking the 'standard' shot extraction temp and it's mostly around 94C. Some beans respond better to a degree or two higher or lower, but I've just scratched the surface, in this area.

C-man · January 2014

Unm it is a vibe pump so it will work like I had it before on my old SB. OG I am closer to 93 deg now, what did you use to measure the temp?

Ol Grumpy · January 2014

Just a milk Thermometer- but a OE $15- one, not a $2- version. That's also why I used the word 'around' 94C. The first shot of the day is probably a degree or three lower. As repeated shots are pulled I can feel the heat of the brass in my hands build and stabilise and doing my normal routine I've checked a few times now and the shot is pretty consistent around the 94C, according to my milk Thermo... Which reads spot on 100C in my boiled kettle, FWIW.... It certainly is not a scientific instrument.... But close enough for me.

Ol Grumpy · January 2014

Hey C-man, someone on here suggested splitting the one extraction into thirds with three cups. This might be an interesting experiment for you to determine if the burnt taste is right through the shot, or develops at the 'tail end'... Just a thought....

Ronin · January 2014

on 1389314287:

Hey C-man, someone on here suggested splitting the one extraction into thirds with three cups. This might be an interesting experiment for you to determine if the burnt taste is right through the shot, or develops at the 'tail end'... Just a thought....

Its an interesting process, split it into 5ml sections or 6 cups for a better comparison. FYI Burnt flavours are either Poorly roasted beans Coffee ground to fine Overdosing Temp or Blunt grinder burrs I'd suggest to get the temp around 93 deg, make sure the burrs are sharp then work on dosing & correct grind. Leave pressure profiling until you have a better understanding or you will confuse yourself IMOP

C-man · January 2014

we can forget grinder burrs and beans and grind as those things were the same for both machines yet different outcome. that only leaves temp and dose, I was using a bigger dose and pulling longer shots. i have it set now to 93 degrees, no more burnt taste, just not as good as grumps rossa. Pressure profiling is not hard just back it down at the end of the shot and watch the flow. Both my machines I hooked up to the gauge read 12 bar before I adjusted them, from the standard 15 bar vibe pump

C-man · March 2014

I read this- HX machines have a single boiler (but you'll just confuse everyone by referring to them as "single boiler" machines). The boiler is kept at steam temp. Cool water from the reservoir is flash-heated to brew temp in a heat exchanger. You are always ready to steam or brew in these machines. If that is the case the how would changing the P-stat on the boiler affect the brew temp? seems like it would not. so, then an HX is like a thermo block? with a set temp>?

Lacehim · March 2014

The principal is this from my understanding. Boiler is at steam temperature. A tube runs thought the boiler to the group head. When you turn on the brew switch water is pumped from your water reservoir through the tube, and it heats up and goes to the group whichis already hot from your preheating. You flush a HX because the water in the HX gets really hot sitting in that tube, it equalises to the steam temperature while it's sitting. To vary the temperature in the HX tube, you can lower the Pstat for the boiler, but this has the effect of reducing the steam pressure too, so you have a play a game, of getting the desired temperature at the group, and adequate steam pressure for steaming milk. Personally I think with all the faffing about, fitting a PID to a HX is a waste of time. Getting it calibrated would be a nightmare, and I doubt you will really see that much of a difference in the cup for your efforts/cost. Put the money towards a dual boiler if you want to faff around with temperatures so there are less variables. Personally I would just grind, lock n load, brew and drink and enjoy. The coffees I had at your place were better than any cafe around our area. Go visit Kelsey and try his L1 (but don't blame me if you get upgraditis). I don't drink espresso straight much, but everytime I go to his place its so nice, lots of flavour. I think he gets shocked that I say it's fine without milk when I visit! haha. If I had $4k lying about I would love one of these now that the niggles have been worked out of the machine.

C-man · March 2014

Thanks, Micheal Reducing the steam pressure with the P-stat reduces the boiler temperature...which reduces the group head temperature (because the boiler water heats the water in the HX tube, which then heats the group head). is this correct? If so the the P-stat will affect brew temp. I also read how to temperature surf a HX not only by how long to flush, but how many seconds of recovery before pulling the shot after the flush. We can never compare what we do at home to a commercial cafe' that just is not fair. I am happy with my coffee just always looking for the best I can do with what I got. I will not bother with a PID now that I understand better how it functions I do find that the different temps bring out different flavors in different beans a lot.... Is kelsy's L! and HX or double boiler? why I ask is I am curious if his better taste if from temp. or Pressure? It most likely is the pressure profile of the Lever?

Kelsey · March 2014

My Bz07 is an HX with PID. There's an explanation of the L1's boiler config somewhere, but off the top of my head I'm not sure. The tastes are different and I suspect if were less far along in my coffee journey I might prefer the BZ. They're very different machines, but both easy to get great shots out of. I appreciated learning about the response certain beans have to temp via the PID. It is, however, annoying to lose steam pressure as you experiment with lower temps. The L1, like most spring levers I suspect, gives a greater definition in flavour and it's hard to go completely wrong with a shot. Single origins in particular are spectacular on the L1. I have the pstat quite low at the moment due to qld's recent run of hot weather, but I'll install a restrictor at some point - apparently I'll be able put the pstat back up to 1.5 bar, for what will be huge steam. You'd be more than welcome to drop down at some point cman, provided you bring the hg-1!

Naki^chap · March 2014

Hey C-man what is your p-stat set to on your S24?, Currently on my S26 I have it set to cycle off at 1.1 bar, that's with the hot weather here in Perth at the moment. I think it will need to go back up to 1.2 -1.3 when the weather cools. I know you had yours running a bit hot, what was the original setting ?.

Lacehim · March 2014

It was cycling off at 1.1 - 1.2 when I was there the other day. Don't get me wrong C-Man, but I think your over thinking it all. Temperature surfing is useful for single small boilers like the Silvia, but with a HX, especially one with a big boiler like yours, there are so many factors in play that you'll need degree in themo and fluid dynamics to make sense of it! lol. Ask on Home Barista, I'm sure someone would work it out for you! :laugh: It may well be that the machine you have will never produce what you are looking for in the cup though, but for $100 what can you complain about? It does produce great coffee. Did you try splitting the shot? Have you tried different beans from mycuppa that can produce fruit flavours? Have you tried various doses etc? Different temps (ie don't purge for high temp, purge for low temp). Have you ever had a shot with the fruit flavours your looking for? If so, made on what, with what beans? Personally in regards to cafes I just can't find one that produces a nice consistently quality coffee but I don't get out much so maybe I'm just missing them. Maybe we should go on a Peregian coffee crawl. :P

C-man · March 2014

Kelsey do you flush the L! before pulling a shot? How can your BZ07 have a PID? how does it work? MC I think Michael answered your question, I did have it lower before and it did not help much so I cranked it back up, still mucking around with it, thinking of drilling a hole just above it so I can tweek it without taking off the cover. How is your going? Micheal, only once did I get the fruit blast I was looking for, It was with the "Rosco" grinder and I Dosed so low in a triple basket that I nearly lost the tamer! then I flushed the holy snappin duckshit out of the S24 before quickly lockin and loading I was hoping the new grinder would bring on the fruit tastes but it has not happened yet, Jeff has been sending me Fruity beans but all I get is what you tasted, excellent coffee but lacking the fruit depth.

conikal · March 2014

... How can your BZ07 have a PID?

C-Man, a PID is only a thermostat by another name, same as a pressurestat is. Its more precise than a simple thermostat, has a very small dead band, and can be easily adjusted and programmed to give very accurate temp control. So, inthe case of the BZ07 the PID is replacing the Pressurestat for the main boiler. .. Which is actually a shame,..because the BZ07 has a separate set of electrical heaters in group head, which arguably would be a better application for a PID to better control (and allow adjustment) of the brew temperature. I have always thought Bezzera missed a trick there ! PS: .. i meant to say, the biggest advantage of having a PID is the digital temperature readout so you can see what temp the boiler is at.! PPS: there is another adjustable temperature controller similar to a PID with a digital readout but much simpler, called an "Electronic temperature controller" or Eelctronic thermostat, which again does the same job as a thermostat, but more precisely but without the sophistication or program ability of a PID ..and cheaper.!

C-man · March 2014

thanks Cone I agree at the group head makes more sense if it is already heated separately. I see they have digital temp gauges for E61 Is they any simple mod I can do to let me control temp a little easier? Maybe just drill a hole above where the P=stat is and attach some kind of handle through to the outside so I can tweek it without having to dismantle every time?

conikal · March 2014

sure , you could use an extended adjuster to tweek the Pstat,.... but really all you can do with it is take it down to the minimum acceptable for good steam ( probably about 1.1 - 1.3 bar, which is still 120+ deg C water temp) As was said earlier, the way to set up a HX m/c is to install flow restrictors in the thermo syphon loop to prevent excess temp at the group, ..AND .. a controlled flushing ritual to finally set the brew temp. Competant HX users claim to be able to set different brew temp to suit different bean roasts etc, just by a variation of the flush time. A Scace device, or a digital temp probe in the group brew path would be ideal to get a grip on this technique i suspect ! ..That is one area the E61 group has an advantage....It is easily fitted with a temp prob directly in the brew path.

UNM · March 2014

A PID is more than just a thermostat. It has a feedback loop to adjust heat input dependent on rate of change and difference between current and set point temp. On an HX machine, boiler temperature does not have a direct 1:1 correspondence to the brew temp. A few HX machines idle cool and need a warning flush if left for some time. If you really want to control extraction temperature, you need a means of monitoring it at the brew head. preferably a head with low thermal mass too, so you can easily change it.

QM0996 · March 2014

Its all clever marketing.... Due to Hysteresis and any number of factors... A pid in most cases provides some form of display and slightly quicker response time... However that is where it stops; so many variables as to boiler size / sensor placement / heat transfer rate etc that a PID (as used in coffee machines) can not and will not control temperature. But rather provide feedback and a narrower high range. It can not cool and manage any overshoot. If they were to be set up correctly you would also need to fully spec the thermal mas and response times of the machine over many conditions and then determine a window of acceptability... If one was to look at the complicated cct around a humidicrib to keep temp set and the tolerances, it is hard to understand how a basic PID and element can be quoted as being as accurate as they are.... The temp is never a flat line... It cycles between the low at which stage the element cuts in ( but temp can get lower before the heat is delivered) and the time (rate of change) until the control device says reached temp - stop providing power ( however eat is still being generated transfered for a short time - as the element changes state). Thus while the temp of the pressure stat / PID may say cut in at X and out at Y ( there is a limit) there is also the extra swing caused by the actual physics around conduction of heat and the sensitivity of the sensor. A standard J/K thermo couple etc means that the temp accuracy is already quite large; and an element that is Fully ON or FULLY off. Until an array of platinum thermistors are used in conjunction with an array of elements so that rate of change can be measured and controlled. A PID is nothing more than marketing..... Mind you a nice blue display that tells you what you think you have is a great feature.... OR better still go to an gas heated machine; as like in cooking, a gas flame has much greater control and stability... Analogue Vs Digital... PPS. My PID is also Food safe / Organic and GF :rofl:

conikal · March 2014

Hey QM, .. whilst i fully agree that a PID is wasted as a temperature controller on a HX M/c,... i do think you are a little harsh on its capabilities . They certainly are fully dependent on the accuracy and positioning of the temp sensor (but that is the same for any control system) , but they are able to "learn" the thermal characteristics of the machine, and heater response , and then calibrate themselves to minimize (even prevent) any significant overshoot and undershoot of temperature within fractions of a degree ( PID's can have temperature resolution down to 0.1 deg C.. and better). . And whilst it is also true that they only work as an "on/off" switch for the heater element, by being able,.. via a SSD,.. to switch many times a second if necessary , they can effectively moderate the power being fed to the element almost infinitely. Of course the functionality and effectiveness of the PID will depend on its type and quality, but even the more basic ($25) ones i have used included all these abilities. But again, as you said, all pretty much wasted on a HX m/c ( However the temp display and easy adjustment alone , may make a conversion worth while !)

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