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Mocha double decaf latte

ReschsmoothReschsmooth
edited January 1970 in Have your say
I saw one of the lovely franchise coffee houses offering a 'mocha coconut frappochino' (or something). How far will the bastardisation of the simple extraction of oils from a bean using hot water go?

Anyone saying that this is due to consumer demand is probably clutching at straws. Sure, the consumer may demand it, but the real reason, I would hazard a guess, is because they have no idea about coffee, and think that ordering such rubbish makes them look 'chic'. Getting back to a number of other topic responses, I believe that there is a responsibility, at least in part, on the industry - YOU guys - to educate the public into realising that you shouldn't extrapolate a million and one variations on a simple theme.

Any thoughts before I get off my soap box?

Cheers

Patrick
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  • Unknown
    couldn't agree more
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  • FreshCoffee2FreshCoffee2
    Hi Patrick, a) you are talking about "fashion"  not the act of drinking coffee. Eg I drink a cup of coffee in the morning after b/fast. I drink one in mid morning, and another at lunchtime...this is because I like it and it does something for me. That all happens in the privacy of my home or office, and it's for my single solitary pleasure. If I want to be "fashionable", I can go down to the cafe and have it there instead. That's where I will get something other than just the act of drinking my coffee eg, to be seen, to have the interaction provided by the ambience at the cafe, could be social interaction with friends or needing a break from the office or something like that. I reckon frappe's come under the heading of fashion if not "fad", but that's only my personal opinion. I also dont believe frappes have the slightest thing to do with coffee, and that they fall under the heading of "softdrinks". The """industry""" cant do much about the frappe thing, because its some in the """industry""" who are pushing the product as a marketing point of difference between their respective companies, and the coffee supply companies of others. The marketing cliche thus used is one of the oldest in the book and goes something like this..."they're not looking after you..." That is, your encumbent supplier is not supplying you with frappe mix, "we" can, the market (charbucks) is leading the way, and consumers are demanding the product, therefore your encumbenmt is not looking after you. The industry is divided amongst those that push the stuff, and those that dont. My personal view, is that frappe mix has as much to do with coffee, as eggs have to do with meat. Do many butchers sell eggs and do they need to ? Then you have the cafe owners that want to buy as many supplies as possible from the one supplier for management reasons and therefore will go for the "they're not looking after you thing" and change supplier. Job done, one coffee supplier out, another in, frappe mix in the cafe. Afraid the topic is bigger than you think, and leads straight back to the fact that whilst the general public naively think that the choice of coffee brand in many cafes has something to do with the "quality" of the beans, nothing could be further from the truth. And that's not saying anyhing about whether frappes are a nice drink or not and yes, I have had some nice frappes ("frappacino" is a registered name specific to a particular franchise "cafe" chain and is not the generic name for the product). FC.
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  • ReschsmoothReschsmooth
    FC, you have concisely ( :P) made some valid points, and no, the topic is not bigger is not bigger than I think because I experience the same in my industry. My industry creates a product which we are 'encouraged' to sell. If we don't, a competitor then implies or directly states that we are not looking after our clients because we are not offering this 'product'. The truth of the matter, in my ideologically puritant mind, is that the client in either yours or my industry, are not being served if we as the service provider are effectively feathering our own nest by providing this 'choice' in the guise of providing a better service. This fashionable choice, again, in either industry, is a function of disguising the lack of quality in the product/service. My local barista in Crows Nest ensures that his coffee is top quality, from storage, working with the [local] roaster, preparation and provision of the wet product. He ensures or at leasts asks if I am happy with the product, particularly if he is trialling a new technique or piece of equipment. Its unfortunate that the bottom line will always drive the client experience, and anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. Yes the client has to be discerning, and yes there are some service providers who are able to stand up to their suppliers, but unfortunately they are few and far between. Patrick
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  • Unknown
    A cafe seems to be a restuarant these days, maybe just maybe we should prostitute the word out for forty dollars the hour, so that people will then realise the difference between coffee and a cheap two dollar prostitute called frappacino.
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  • pabpab
    the would would be a much better place without customers.... Seriously, I wouldn't worry about the frappacino crowd. Probably the same type that have a diet Coke with their Big Mac... The whole thing is a tight rope that we have to tread. On the one hand we want to keep the well made coffee to ourselves and let the masses drink their International dust, whereas on the other hand (more so for the producer than the consumer) we'd like the standards to be raised. I prefer the former to make the hunt for that special cup all the more special. To me it's kinda like who that fashion industry think they have mass marketed "cool" whereas in reality all it's done is created a bunch of sheep in "designer" clothing...
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  • FreshCoffee2FreshCoffee2
    Patrick, please do not offend...I have never done anything *concisely*! Now if you dont mind I have a frappe to finish... FC.
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  • ReschsmoothReschsmooth
    FC, your word count is slipping!! P
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  • ReschsmoothReschsmooth
    In relation to all these topics about quality of espresso, etc, I want to ask one simple question: I go to two Italian restaurants: one charges, say, $25 for a risotto, the other charges $18. The difference reflects, amonst other things, quality and perhaps effort of the chef. Agreed? At the same restaurant, a bottle of Grange, if offered, will be about $350. A bottle of, say, Penfolds Bin 389 (also shiraz) will be overpriced at $40+. The difference reflects quality and ability of wine maker (I assume John Duval doesn't produce their Bin 389) amongst other things. Agreed? I go to a bottle shop, and a bottle of Coopers beer is more expensive than a bottle of Tooheys New. The difference reflects quality of the former compared to the latter, technique, etc. Why, then, does the barista around the corner (whom I have mentioned plenty of times) charge about the same price as the coffee bean murderers across the road, despite his product being many times better, and produced with considerably greater care? Why will the consumer accept price differences reflecting differences in quality for other food goods (food, wine, beer, etc), but not for coffee? Any argument about relative price (the meal is $20+, the wine is $30+, etc) doesn't wash when you look at the beer being in the same ball park pricing as coffee. Any ideas? Patrick PS, FC, I hope to be in Canberra in April or May sometime
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  • Unknown
    Re: "...Why, then, does the barista around the corner (whom I have mentioned plenty of times) charge about the same price as the coffee bean murderers across the road, despite his product being many times better, and produced with considerably greater care? Why will the consumer accept price differences reflecting differences in quality for other food goods (food, wine, beer, etc), but not for coffee..." It's because the general public doesn't know a good from a bad coffee and is under attack by the "marketing / political" machines of the large companies trying to monopolise market share at a time when the consumer coffee market is growing quicker than all expectations had ever predicted. Large companies are busy with "wholesale" branding excercises instead of with market education excercises. So "sophistication" is the drinking of a particular brand, rather than simply the pursuit of excellence. At the moment the consumer coffee sector thinks its so cool having embraced the kappachino / larttehhh thing, while in actual fact it's way way way behind the quite sophisticated consumer wine sector in terms of real coffee APPRECIATION. Coffee consumers wishing to see and to be seen in cafes are brand junkies and snobs. Cafes that cant serve up a decent coffee are wankers and should be driven out of business just like any other business that doesn't perform, and the coffee companies that indulge them for the sake of their market share are coffee market murderers who are deliberately keeping the consumer public ignorant of the facts. They reep what they sow, and in their case it is to have what essentially amounts (generally) to an ignorant client base actually driving the direction of their market. Now that's dumb and is sometimes called allowing the tail to wag the dog. The answer to your question asking why lartehh prices have to be comparable between so called cafes when the price of everything else is not, is simply because the greatest majority of the general public cant tell the difference. And the pity is, that they apparently allow the branding machines to dictate to them that something is good when their taste buds ought to be telling them that someone is pulling their leg. Just like a bunch of sheep to the slaughter. Right Into Coffee Politics, Mal
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  • Unknown
    the average coffee average is used to viewing coffee as  commodity, not a specialised drink. they are also uctually accustomed to swilling exceptionally bad coffee. we seem to be regarded as having the most expensive coffee in perth.  don't know about that. we charge $3.80 for caps, $4.50 mocha (in 140ml cup/glass)   i can say your business will grow (as ours is) if the stated differences are consistently reinforced/confirmed by actual experience. we don't serve soy or decaf out of principle, we don't do stupid things like flavoured frappo**** and are more than prepared to tell the occasional customer to **** off. our pricing is not based on profit, its based on standards. gotta walk the walk Charles Just Espresso          
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  • ReschsmoothReschsmooth
    So what came first, the uneducated consumer or the profit hungry coffee supplier marketing department? P
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  • Unknown
    we make a point of trying to train them to be shepards instead of sheep and as for coffee companies flogging their brands they're just wolves looking for an easy feed    
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  • Unknown
    right on brother. and as to what came first or whose fault is what, that's not important...rather, consider this: The espresso consumer market in countries other than the country of origin is extremely young so you can forgive ignorant consumers (up to a point). You cannot forgive ignorant coffee companies turning their own market...into their own worst enemy...by not attending to the business of educating their client base through the pursuit of excellence and raising standards. too many cafes... too many coffee companies... too many noveau (correct spelling anyone?) consumer brand snobs... equals money money money in the market manipulation monopoly brand stakes. Mal The Koffee Politik
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  • johnjohn
    Chalres Interesting comment about no soy and no decaf. I am not acquainted with Perth, however on the east coast they are some great fresh soy milks and some excellent decaf coffees available. The problem with both of these products is that most coffee makers use long life soy (yukko) and/or do not understand how to texture soy milk. The average decaf sux because most coffee houses use stale preground decaf. I have no qualms in making for myself a doppio ristretto decaf picollo soy latte. Try it!!! JD
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  • ReschsmoothReschsmooth
    Why can't you forgive a corporate from trying to maximise returns to shareholders? This is somewhat a rhetorical question as I know that on the one hand, a company will prostitute themselves to turn a buck and on the other hand, some will care about what they are and what they do. In terms of the consumer, at what point should they become more responsible for their choices? I took a client to my favourate cafe in Crows Nest as I knew both he and I appreciate great coffee, and, I try to spread the word of this more and more. Patrick
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  • Unknown
    the problems with soy are: 1. being so overpowering, it masks the taste of coffee rather than enhance it; 2. so that there can be no loyalty to your product becasue there is no actual appreciation of it; and 3. the way they make it here is no good. for those who are lactose intolerant as opposed to being trendy there are options. as for decaf, it is simply a waste of time. i really don't care about the group of 10 mothers who wont come because one is a soy drinker or cant handle caffeine and you have to take that attitude otherwise you are compromising.  
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  • Unknown
    decaf may look, smell and obviously taste like coffee but it is what is is... an artificial process that tampers with the chemistry of a natural product. Secondly, there are only a few companies licensed to use the technology which are essentially the rights to exploit poor farmers. Lastly, no one seriously sets out to build a reputation based on decaf sales so where are you going with this?    
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  • johnjohn
    Chalres I am not sure who your last comment was addressed to. Once again I am not acquainted with the West Coast. However I am surprised that you have not heard of the Swiss Water Decaffeination Process. Whilst chemicals are used to decaffeinate most coffees (those obviously used in Perth), the Swiss Water Process uses only water. It is a patented process that results in a reasonably good tasting coffee that is never subjected to chemicals. I suggest that you have a look at www.swisswater.com I am not sure how this process disadvantages the poor farmer. If anything it would be adding to their green bean sales. To say using soy milk is being trendy. This is an interesting statement. My 89 year old father must be some what of a groover, he has been on the soy for at least the past 20 years. I am not sure as to who is saying to build a reputation on decaf sales. But I go back to my original comment about using stale preground decaf and the average coffee maker not being able to texture soy milk. I suggest that maybe find a supplier with some non chemical decaf (east coast supplier) and practice texturing soy milk. You may be surprised. So might your customers. I could handle 10 mums each day having a couple of soy whatevers each (not to forget the other 10 trendites that they might attract). They might even bring their husbands who drink real Perth coffee. They would just about pay the rent. John PS Do you drink light beer or chardonnay????
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  • over_extractedover_extracted
    Ive given coffee sales reps decaf and not long ago i gave my boss one too and none of them could tell it was.I actually quite like it its not as bad as it was a few years ago ,this swiss water method is quite good you have to use high quality beans and it makes a lot of difference,good luck on your quest.OE
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  • Unknown
    john, i am very familiar with the swiss water method. what you need to look at is what the company that has the patent on the swiss water method actually pays for their green beans... "fair trade" ... does it ring a bell? regarding soy, if you look hard enough there is research out there detailing health effects. throwing your dad into this discussion misses the point. my dad who is 70 has been drinking milk for his whole life but that doesn't make him a conservative does it? my reference to soy having become trendy is based on information that in the last 5-7 years companies who have promoted this product and its derivatives have had astronomical sales growth. as for not using soy or decaf, its a choice we made for our business model. if you need it to make yours work so be it but most people i know would prefer not to carry either. by the way, i haven't made any assumptions about your skill levels. why do you make them about mine?  
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  • ReschsmoothReschsmooth
    As for decaf, whilst I wouldn't touch it, but one of the longer standing forum participants posted, late last year if I recall, the they were no longer able to consumer caffeine - would you want to refuse their custom (altered for medicinal reasons) our of principal?
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  • Unknown
    if they can't consume caffeine why ask for coffee? why do i want to carry decaf when only one out of 20 people in my area ask for it and of those who ask only one in ten has a legitimate medical reason for doing so? my simple proposition is that though it bucks conventional wisdom i believe it a mistake to try and appeal to every consumer. could that partly explain why so many cafe owners are having problems making money?
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  • ReschsmoothReschsmooth
    "if they can't consume caffeine why ask for coffee?", ummm, I am no expert on the subject, but perhaps for the taste of coffee? Should a bar/pub refuse to stock light beer out of principal? If a person shouldn't have full strength, why ask for beer? I agree, you don't have to be all things to all people, but I would hazard a guess that people drink decaf for a specific reason, not always medical, as opposed to people who drink mocha skinny lattes because it is chic (in their view). Furthermore, you talk about not catering to every single customer preference, yet you serve mocha coffees? Isn't there a bit of hypocrisy there? Patrick
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  • dcbcdcbc
    just a question to rsmooth why don't get involved in the coffee industry?
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  • ReschsmoothReschsmooth
    DCBC...I think my expertise lies in other areas outside of the coffee industry. But it is fun jumping on one's soapbox and spouting opinions about an area I don't know a lot of.... ;D Seriously, I mouth off a lot in this forum simply because a lot of the issues are not exclusive to the coffee industry, but general business management, particularly in a service industry. Ask me about client management, and I can given an opinion - it may not be 'correct' (if an opinion can or can not be), but ask me about suspension roasters, and I will gladly let that one go to the keeper. ;D Patrick
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  • ReschsmoothReschsmooth
    I couldn't agree with me more, really.
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