SUNDAY LIFE

over_extracted · April 2004

Did anyone read the article on the sunday life 18th april,what did you all think of it and what about the 130 cups of coffee out of 1 kilo of beans,at .30 cents per cup including costs.OE

Reschsmooth · April 2004

I assume you are referring to the advertorial which also appeared in today's SMH online?

Gonzo · April 2004

Just part of the usual misinformation that passes for "Koffee EdjaKashion" of the masses. With crap like this printed almost daily, how can you ever hope to ***properly*** educate the general public and cafe workers alike. Try asking a table full of cafe workers and interested domestic espresso machine users the same question...how many espressos can you make from a kilo of coffee. The mind boggles at the number of different answers you will get. Almost none will be able to justify ( ie tell you how they came up with) their answer. The race is on with such articles for up and coming johnny come lately coffee experts to try and "out image" the next bloke with tales of their coffee expertise, AND OF HOW HARD IT IS TO MAKE COFFEE PROPERLY...Feeding dependence on the noveau coffee consulting industry, very much complicating life for those within the industry. Pity they (our instant experts) just dropped in in the last shower. I particularly like the comment about how you get 130 cups WITH WASTAGE out of a kilo of coffee, giving us a 30 cent cost per cup...and this gem, apparently from the training and development manager of a coffee academy at a Melbourne Tafe. It's taken out of context I'm sure (I hope), because without a miriad of justifications not the least of which should be about CUP SIZE, the comment amounts to nothing more than misinformation, or mischief, take your pick. How can so much time (and crap) be devoted / wasted, on such a simple thing as a cup of coffee? It is getting tedious constantly having to live up to the trumped up image that people in the coffee game are "PASSIONATE ABOUT COFFEE - AND A LITTLE CRAZY" (you'll find that one attributed to some "head barista" from a Newtown Cafe, about the middle of P29, RHS column... For chrissake, these people are no more than professional waiters and barmen, no more, no less. Next, these journos will have us consulting these truly important "baristas" on matters concerning the national economy! The fact that some of them earn good money (refer last paragraph P29 LHS column) compared to others in the retailing sector is due to the fact their working hours are wiled away on penalty rates at night and during weekends... Whatever happened to the simple art of presenting yourself as simply being - professional, and genuinely interested, in whatever you do. Apparently it's not enough in modern Koffeespeak. But as we all know you should never let a good story get in the way of the truth, or some such trueism... Taken from the article heading on P29..."A barista is the difference between a simple coffee AND A SUBLIM SIP OF AROMATIC HEAVEN..." and then "...it should have a glossy sheen to the surface, with a velvety texture...." .......sounds like she's on something pretty potent and I'm not talking coffee, I'll have what she's having please... G.

pab · April 2004

didn't they mean instant coffee beans!! ;D

Reschsmooth · April 2004

I wouldn't want to justify this lovely peice of journalistic infotainment, but, having dealt with journos before, the comment about being passionate and a litle crazy is just as likely a result of the journo asking "so, do you think that baristas have to be passionate about coffee, even a little crazy?" whereas the response can be "yeah, I guess" and then the subject is 'credited' with this wisdom. I know when I have contributed to articles, it is extremely important to read the draft of the article to make sure that you are not being taken out of context and, worse still, you are not being seen as having a swipe at yours or another industry unintentionally. I had coffee the other morning with an industry journo and had to preface every comment with an 'off the record'. (Also, the cappuccino we each had had lovely foam towering over the cup, ready to topple over with any sudden movement or wind - the only reason I went there as opposed to my normal spot was because I had a dreadful cold and couldn't be arsed walking to the other place). Ya see, these journo's and their editors don't want nice passive yet factual stories and comments, they want sensational, controversial tripe which will inspire comments like the ones we are posting here in response. And Gonzo, not wishing to be too pedantic, I guess you mean "you should never let the truth get in the way of a good story" - hey, our government has been doing that for 8 years now! :P I'm Ken Brockman CHeers Patrick

Unknown · April 2004

Yes, I must agree. There were many mistruths in the article - particularly with the 30cents per cup thing. This sort of thing hurts us who do put much time and effort into great espresso - with smaller return than it would seem. However, Mr. Gonzo, you do get a bit much when you refer to our head barista as "some head barista blah blah blah..." This man Ben D'Emden is one of the top three baristas in Sydney right now and has worked hard to earn his position and the respect of our peers. And Campos Coffee in Newtown is widely regarded as the highest quality espresso business in the city. Ben's quotation about being a little crazy and never resting in search of improvement was the only good thing in the article. That, and his coffees which were featured in the pictures. You must agree, every espresso pictured is beautiful. But that is how all our coffees are. Maybe you should come to our shop and see for yourself how good Ben is- actually, you should see how good espresso coffee can be served by all our baristas. Gonzo, I really think you should get out more and see that we are not all professional waiters and barmen. We are professional baristas and we are very proud of what we do for a living. We are also, by the way, making a good living out of what we do. We get paid well for our efforts and our job satisfaction could never be higher. There is some good in the espresso world. Sincerely, Will Young Campos Coffee.

dcbc · April 2004

right on Will Young, achivements in any industry is done by the truly creative whom are only satisfied challenging the status quo. I don't feel as if Gonzo was challenging the reputation of your team though.

Gonzo · April 2004

Dear Will Young, as per DCBC's post, I wasn't challenging the reputation of your team. Otherwise, when you (or anyone else) can show me someone that knows their way properly around the coffee brewing equipment, understands it, can trouble shoot it and keep it well adjusted / tuned and clean so as it keeps on keepin on like it should...and can keep his or her ego in check...to just make good coffee as it should be made, professionally and without fuss...that person will have earned my respect. I still want to know what the "journo" was on, it sure must be good stuff. G.

Unknown · April 2004

Gonzo, Yes, we do all of the above... do not be afraid, come see us. As for 'what the journo was on' - I have to agree with her, well poured espresso coffee should have a glossy sheen to it. It should also have a velvetty texture. If our coffee does not have that finish, then we do not send it out. Enjoy espresso, Will Young

Jerry · April 2004

Is this real top 10 of Sydney? I'm astounded that places such as Latteria, Bar Coluzzi, Bills were even mentioned as making drinkable coffee let alone top 10. Bar Italia?... C"MON!!! I have experienced 8 of the 10 places mentioned and would rate one or maybe two places listed. I think this journo's credibility is questionable at best! Regarding the article, I want to shake hands with the guy who can get 130 coffee's 'with' wastage making my $3 soy flat white for 30 cents!! Oh and the one about a good barista 'taking home' $1000 a week plus the cash bonus makes my head hurt. Will, you mention that Ben is in the top 3 barista's in Sydney. Who are the other 2? Peach

Gonzo · April 2004

Will, we may well both agree that a well made espresso will have a glossy sheen on the surface and that surface will have a velvety texture...but the point is, that's just espresso. No more, no less. If it is well made, that's the way it is. It is therefore the norm and nothing special to rave about as if someone has just discovered america! I am still pondering over the obvious misquote "...why beans are ripe for roasting at 2 to 3 days old..." ??? There is always going to be a problem when someone who knows nothing about a particular subject runs around interviewing various people and tries to cut and paste it all together to make up a story. G.

Reschsmooth · April 2004

It's a valid point, Gonzo, that an espresso is so defined.....does that mean we should get the ACCC involved when an operator purports to sell espresso which is not velvety in texture or glossy in shean? You wouldn't expect a journo to be an expert in their field, would you? I have been misquoted and misrepresented in my industry rags numerous times by journos how have been working the field for quite a while - and god help you if you don't have a chance to read the draft before it goes to print, and you find that you have been taken commpletely out of context. P

Unknown · May 2004

Hey Fellas, About the glossy sheen, what we are saying, is that all espresso based beverages should have a glossy sheen to them - including caps, lattes, flat whites, long blacks. There are not many places in Sydney who define every coffee with the glossy sheen and the bar should be raised to make this the norm. I am sure that is what the article was trying to say. As for the top three baristas in Sydney - yes Ben is up there, and another would be Paul Bassett. As for the third in the top three, I'll avoid argument and leave it blank. The last thing needed on this forum is an ego debate and everyone has their own faves. Later Grindfinders, Will.

admin · May 2004

Hi Jerry - you make a valid point in your post; the interesting thing is that I had set up a thread: 'Top cafes - Sydney & Melbourne' and it has solicited surprisingly little response from this forum.

Reschsmooth · May 2004

Admin I think the main problem with trying to develop a shortlist of 'top cafes' in any city is the fact that Joe Public may go to a cafe one time, have a good (not great) coffee but compared to the normal crap they may have been drinking, thinks it is velvety heaven (or whatever words that journo used). Obviously the opposite can occur, to a point as well. I know you are not trying to formulate an 'official' list, but without some form of standard in the assessments, such a list may prove inappropriate. Any thoughts? On a separate issue, many forum topics have revolved around EMO's taking their trade seriously. Why not have a licensing regime (gotta love regulation) with those found guilte of abusing the bean having their license stripped away from them (in conjunction with a public flogging, of course)? Cheers Patrick

FreshCoffee2 · May 2004

Well actually Patrick, ethically this really is the only way to go. It's called Quality Assurance. Unfortunately the reality is that it will never happen and the cafe industry will be left to sort it out on "the level playing field" of competition. FC.

admin · May 2004

Which gets back to the fact that the arbiter (ie the general public) is the judge. Given that they are generally uneducated - ie don't know a good espresso from a bad one; don't feel confident enough to send a bad one back (see also 'Public Education' thread), does this mean things don't look promising in terms of a general improvement in our lifetime? By the way Patrick, there's apparently a website in the UK (Matthew Algie) where they out bad cafes, however I'm reluctant to start something like that through Crema for two reasons - firstly if we followed the UK model, they don't name the cafe, just its approximate location (presumably for legal reasons), and secondly, Crema is so small that we can't avoid to run the risk of litigation (those pesky legal reasons)... Anyway, gets back to a question that someone else raised on another thread - isn't there supposed to be an organistion for which these issues are important (ACTA??)- interesting stuff. Admin

Reschsmooth · May 2004

It's no wonder we find it so difficult answering the question about how to raise the standard, given consumers like me generally don't know nuthin, and therefore, the industry at large do not have quality demanded upon them. I seriously doubt that replicating the UK dob-in-a-coffee-abusing-shop site would work here as, and with all due respect, most people who would log onto the Crema Magazine website or an affiliated cafe outing site would know the difference between good bad and ugly, and would therefore have little impact on educating the public, or getting the message through to those who need to heed it. Know what I mean? Those cafe's who abuse the bean are unlikely to care whether a website points the finger at them. My thoughts anyway Patrick

FreshCoffee2 · May 2004

...or worse, you will have: a) uninformed but vocal members of the general public outing cafes where there may actually be NO fault, and b) those with an axe to grind may point the finger, also where there may actually be NO fault. In any case the same old question applies..."WHO JUDGES THE JUDGE?" FC.

Reschsmooth · May 2004

It's the 'same old question' because it can never be answered appropriately? Particularly in an area like this - coffee. It is not something that you can purely quantify....the temperature of extraction, time of extraction, temp of milk, quantity of espresso, etc, perhaps, but what about ambiance, what about cleanliness, what about service, what about other factors? It has been mentioned that, arguably, some professionals can make better coffee using instant than some 'baristas' using fresh coffee. Perhaps you have a judge judging the judges, and then a judge judging that judge. The two main problems are conflicts/biases and natural subjectiveness. Agree? Cheers Patrick

admin · May 2004

Hi Patrick - before we over-intellectualise this (judges judging judges, ad nauseum) I'd like to address your point about the difficulty in judging cafes due to variability - time of day, different baristas, etc yes, you have a point but surely some cafes are consistently better than others, and some definitely have an ethos of trying to serve consistently good espressso; at least this has been my experience. Therefore I would suggest that it is possible to draw up a shortlist using 'qualified' (and yes, I know I'm not defining that sufficiently) people, taking account of the difficulty of objectively measuring variables, etc, etc and put our collective balls on the line... Fresh - have raised this question (about ACTA) before - of anyone, aren't they the organisation that should have an interest in the quality of coffee available to the public in Australia? Do they still exist; do they do anything? Would appreciate some feedback. Tx Admin

Reschsmooth · May 2004

I concede, oh omiscent Admin... ;D I guess you can't have a perfect judging and assessment system - just have a look at who won the gold logie P

admin · May 2004

'omniscient' ciao -A

Reschsmooth · May 2004

indubitably, oh wise one... ;D

admin · May 2004

Hi guys - would still be grateful for any feedback you can give on what you consider the best (ie serving consistently excellent coffee) cafes in Sydney & Melbourne - see thread 'Top cafes - Sydney & Melbourne. Thanks Admin

Reschsmooth · May 2004

Hi Admin The new one keeping you awake? Two Crows Nest cafe's I would recommend is BN on Alexander St (when Simon returns) and Pino's (the one off Willoughby Road, not on it). Having tried a number of others whilst Simon was participating at the AASCA competition, I found that despite all the flash machines, popularity, etc, the simple art of extracting espresso is certainly lost. I have long been an advocate of Simon's ability (I don't know his surname), and this is largely because of the setup of his equipment being open for all to see. Basically, everything is cleaned and heated (portafilters, cups, etc) before a coffee is made...therefore, there is no ability to hide what he does. There is no pretensions of grandeur, in fact the only indication of the brand of coffee used is a little sticker stuck to the grinder. He told me a few weeks ago that he was visited by a staff member of Crema Magazine, although he hadn't heard anything further about it. Anyway, a couple of islands of espresso in a sea of crap that is the Crows Nest cafe 'scene'. Cheers Patrick (Admin, I don't know if you want to move this to the other forum threads).

admin · October 2004

Revived topic -Admin

Reschsmooth · October 2004

Just thought I would mention that, in Crows Nest, an existing cafe has had a change of management and a makeover, and is now called, intelligently or pretentiously, E61 Espresso Bar. I haven't tried them yet. They do seem to appear to have a pretty flash looking ECM two group. I might give them a go today and see how they are (from an amateur's perspective, of course). Cheers P (Go Cammeray Cricket Club today).

FreshCoffee2 · October 2004

Just an observation Patrick (and a very "picky" one): If they have called themselves after the mother of all modern commercial espresso coffee machines, the E61, I wonder why they dont have one in pride of place to make coffee with ie, why do they have an ECM machine instead of an E61??? And to clarify this: There are lots of machines using E61 type "groups" in various brand and model modern espresso machines. But the groups dont constitute the legend of the E61, the model in toto does. The groups by themselves are just spare parts. Besides, the look of a genuine E61 is unmistakeable and still incredibly stylish and sexy (for a coffee machine). So a) Where is the E61 machine that should be in pride of place and b) does the 2 gp ECM machine even have E61 groups. I'm not sure but last time I check I didn't think so (please feel free to correct if this is not so someone). So what's the connection for the use of the name in this cafe? By the way the age of an original machine is not an excuse, once reconditioned they can go back into full service, still make better coffee, and can be more reliable (due to simplicity) than many new moderns. Just an thought! Cheers, FC. Genuine E61 owner (well kind of, until lay buyer pays it off and takes it away, and I grab another).

lars · October 2004

Hey guys - just noticed a headline in this weekend's Australian relating to their coverage of the election: 'Inner-city - it's young, lattes and very Labor'...I'm not a sociologist, but does this mean coffee in Australia really is becoming a Movement?? Lars

Reschsmooth · October 2004

Fresh, valid point and makes for an interesting question: If they don't use a real 'E61', why the name given the average punter would not know what E61 refers to anyway? P

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