crema on espresso

FionaK · February 2005

I have been given a Krups espresso machine and keep reading about the excellent Crema this machine produces, yet I am getting very little. I've been told that the crema is where most of the flavour is. Can anyone tell me what I may be doing wrong. I bought freshly ground coffee and have stored it airtight out of the frig.

Thanks

admin · February 2005

Hi Fiona - will ask one of our more senior coffee experts to see if they can provide some answers, but a few quick points: 1. it's not so much that the crema is 'where the flavour is', rather that a good crema is a sign of a well-extracted espresso, which will hopefully give you a good taste, depending on the freshness of the beans, the skill with the espresso is extracted, and other variables. 2. to be honest (& I hate to disappoint you) whenever we've tested Krups machines, we haven't had a great result, however it's possible they've improved their product and come out with a really good machine... 3. there are a couple of things that are especially important when extracting a good espresso - how fast did the coffee come out - it should be a thin stream (often called a 'rat's tail' because of the shape). If it's too course, it will pour out too fast, which means that you don't get the best out of the coffee. The problem that often occurs with the cheaper home espresso machines is that they have to use ground coffee which is too course, because they don't have the 'oomph' to push the coffee through a fine-enough grind. These are a few jumbled thoughts, but I guess the point is that it's not necessarily that you are doing a lot wrong...anyway, hopefully some of our true experts will be able to add some thoughts. Best Admin

FionaK · February 2005

Thanks.

AJzCafe · February 2005

Hi Fiona, I'm am no where near some of the talented advisors on this site, but I too have a Krups Novo 2100 machine and struck similar problems to what you are describing. Firstly, ask GJ's to grind your beans one grade coarser than what they usually set for home espresso - this worked a treat for me initially. Secondly, I have my Krups running to it limit at the moment - it is producing an espresso that is professionally described as 'ordinary' but acceptable to my taste - I am now ready to move on machine wise, but I would consider the coffee I am producing at present as the best that this type of machine can produce.

Reschsmooth · February 2005

Fiona I have a 'home espresso machine' (Saeco) which goes somewhere to producing a decent job with espresso. However, as mentioned, the first, second and last thing you should do is buy a decent grinder. The ability to adjust the grind, and (hopefully) grind for each shot will probably solve most of your problems. I have noticed that I can pour a double ristretto which produces about 5mm of crema once the it is poured with freshly ground coffee. I am sure FC, JD (aka Pinot, PNo?) et al will provide better advice. Good luck. P

john · February 2005

Fiona Crema or lack of it will depend on a number of things: The beans freshness Grind size Dose quantity Tamp pressure Water temperature Machine pressure. Where to start, for you I suggest (as you are buying pre-ground coffee), ask the retailer to grind one or two notches finer. You could also try a different blend or a different retailer. Then you could slightly increase your dose level and tamp pressure. If the above fail, then you might need to invest in a grinder and purchase beans from a specialty bean supplier. Following is a definition of sorts for 'CREMA'. Crema is the foam that sits on the top of the espresso coffee after extraction and is formed from forcing water under pressure through the packed coffee grounds. It comprises gases and other compounds that are broken down and combined during the extraction process. The colour comes from sugars that have been caramelised in the coffee bean during the roasting process. The crema will float on top of the espresso and should typically be up to 5 mm thick. The colour varies from light, golden brown to caramel through to deep, rich mahogany or reddish brown. The consistency is due to the sugars, fats and proteins that are emulsified during extraction. The crema should be dense, fine grained

FionaK · February 2005

Thanks all for your help. If I end up buying a grinder, do I need to get an expensive one? Do they all do the same job? I think I've seen a very cheap one and have wondered whether it would be adequate. Fiona K

pab · February 2005

Fiona, I started off with the Krups machine as well - a great way to get the "taste" for home espresso. I always got my beans ground slightly coarser so the Krups could handle it. A few years back we got a DeLonghi grinder (~$130) which performs quite well. We've since ditched the Krups because of its poor heating and steaming capabilities and went for a Giotto (still kicking strong JD!!). We're still using the DeLonghi grinder which works well - mind you, it's at its finest setting (I'm sure my bro will give me his Isomac grinder for my b'day). So, if you plan to keep the Krups for a while, it is worthwhile considering a grinder such as the DeLonghi or the Gaggia MM. Cheers, Pablo

john · February 2005

Pablo How do? Glad to see you are enjoying the Giotto. Must be time to step up a notch in a grinder!!! Fiona As, you can see, the grinder may hold the answer to your problem. Apart from the necessity of 'GRINDING FRESH' per cup, there is also a bit of a WOW factor in grinding your own beans. The room fills with wonderful 'coffee' aromas, that make you want to keep grinding. Which grinder??? 1 Look at your budget. 2 Consider, are you in for the long haul? 3 Do you think that you might upgrade the Krups? If so, when? If you are on a budget then there are a number of grinders that you could buy from about $200. Then they just keep going up. I believe that 'FRESHCOFFEE' has a selection of grinders from around $200. Go to his website: www.cosmorexcoffee.com.au If you think that you could become addicted to the caffeine, then you could consider going up market on the grinder and look to spend about $400 or so. This will get you into the Rancilio Rocky range, A great grinder for domestic use and will give you years of hastle free service. From there you go up to $600 plus and start looking at the Macap M5 or the Mazzer. If you want to upgrade from the Krups, you could start at say the Rancilio Silvia about $750 and from there the sky is the limit. The Diadema range from about $2400 and then the ECM Giotto about $2550. Good luck. JD

pab · February 2005

Hey John, I'm doing well. The Giotto hasn't missed a beat except for when a colony of ants decided to call it home - they were using the water resivour as a swimming pool. I give the Delonghi grinder another 12 months until it starts to show it's age and then I'll move to a more robust unit. Another consideration with the DeLonghi is that it's relatively small for the small space I've got which has to accomodate the Giotto, grinder and knock box. We had a quote for a new kitched last year. I was asked by the designer "Do you want to hide the coffee machine inside a cabinet".... needless to say we didn't go ahead with that particular company. I'll be in touch when the time comes to look at a new grinder!! Cheers, Pablo

FreshCoffee2 · February 2005

Fiona, notwithstanding all that has already been written, here is the link to another topic in this forum that addresses all you need to know about brewing espresso. The only teentzy thing to look out for is that the info is geared for traditional design espresso machines that do not have any kind of "crema enhancing" device in the filter holder / group handle. If your Krups has a crema enhancing device in the group handle, the mode of operation may be slightly different....but on the whole, the thing should be relevant to you. So check out: http://www.cremamagazine.com.au/forums/YaBB.cgi?board=2;action=display;num=1061689311 Regardez, FC.

Reschsmooth · February 2005

Pablo, I have no problem giving you my Isomac grinder for your birthday, after you buy me the Giotto Premium/Mazzer Mini combo from JD! ;D

john · February 2005

Patrick What happened to the 'gift' list. JD

FionaK · February 2005

Thanks again for all the help. I still can't go out and buy a grinder, but I could try different grinds. Have looked back over all the suggestions posted and have been given advice both ways - ask for one grade coarser, and ask for it to be ground finer. What should I try first? Remember that buying it that way will give me a whole bag, not just one dose! (I can almost feel you all shudder at how stale my coffee must be! Happy to receive any hand me down grinders!!!

). Fiona (Okay, so I now see that I should have used a clever coffee related name)

Reschsmooth · February 2005

JD - if I can get my bro to buy a GIotto off you for me, who would I be to say no! (I am not counting on it though, so the 'gift list' is still a potentiality) P

admin · February 2005

Hi Fiona - understand your predicament, but it's one that's pretty hard to judge, without seeing how your machine actually performs...basically, the usual problem as I originally mentioned, is that many of the cheaper domestic machines simply don't have the power to push the water through finely-ground coffee; this means that you have to have a fairly course grind (which is the way most roasters will supply it to you unless you have a really good machine); this is why I assumed it would probably be too course....unfortunately the only option is to experiment - suggest you go to a really good roaster (let us know where you're based and we can try and give you some suggestions) and ask them to do you a small quantity at several different grinds. Chances are that the finest grind will give you the best 'crema', but the question will be whether your Krups can cope with it. -A

FionaK · February 2005

The biggest areas near me are Hornsby and Castle Hill. Anyone got any suggestions as to where I should source ground coffee near here? Preferably, as suggested, where I may be able to buy small quantities in different grinds for sampling. Fiona K

FreshCoffee2 · February 2005

Fiona, no point in trying diff grinds until you are sure that you are filling the coffee filter properly to the correct level. That is, to a point where when the coffee is tamped in the filter, it is only just below the level of the group shower when the filter handle assembly is applied to the group. It's explained in the link I gave you on the previous page. When you know that is correct, you can pick the grind. If the wet (brewed) coffee rushes out into the cup, the coffee is too coarse, and vice versa....so, this shouldn't be as difficult a task as it may seem at first. One other thing. Make sure the coffee you are using is fresh or this too will affect the grind. Regardez, FC.

FionaK · February 2005

Hi FC I did follow your link to the other topic re filling coffee to the right level etc. Have gone through all of that and checked it, and believe that I'm doing that correctly. Thanks for that link - most helpful. I should have acknowledged your help with that before. I will also say that my coffee is now tasting pretty good! I have read so much info on these pages - followed many of the forum discussions (including wondering whether to try roasting coffee in my old pop corn popper then deciding that perhaps there are other ways - thanks "Reschsmooth") and had a look at a few people's coffee-related websites. Quite a few years ago I knew someone with a coffee tree who didn't use the beans, so we picked them, roasted them and ground them to use just in a plunger. I can't remember how we did it but with no specialised equipment and with reasonable results I think. I will have a few coffee trees with beans hopefully happening in about 1 and half years (they're still babies now) so I have a little while to figure it all out. Wont mind if the results aren't as perfect as those of the career specialist roaster, but as has been said elsewhere - the thrill and satisfaction of doing it all yourself makes up for that somewhat. (And I bake all our bread, make all our preserved fruit/jam/pasta, etc. I really should be doing the coffee too!) Anyway, back from that tangent, my coffee now really does taste good, but as it is one of my only really self-indulgent luxuries, and as I don't get near great cafes often, (and also as I have an obsession with being able to create wonderful food that awakens senses, and coffee can certainly do that), I am now just working on getting it better. Unfortunately, although the easy solution would be purchase of a better machine and a grinder, that is not an option at the moment, so I have to look down other paths. Does anyone know of somewhere near Hornsby that I can purchase small quantities of freshly ground beans with which to experiment? Fiona K

kencas · February 2005

Hello Fiona, Just thought I'd post a link to CoffeeCo that was all about grinders. On this site, it was mentioned that a grind for the Krups *should* be set one setting coarser. Here is the link - http://www.coffeeco.com.au/altcof/altcoffeepage9.html Hope this helps, but I have found that with my machine (Breville), and working with my mates machine (Krups), that neither machine really likes the true "espresso" grind, and that setting our DeLonghi grinders one notch coarser (to 2-3)makes the world of difference. Regards, Ken.

pab · February 2005

Fiona, With my Krups and before I got a grinder, I was buying ground coffee from Grinders coffee. The "brick" coffee that is usually sold was too fine and resulted in pretty poor extraction. When I ordered the next lot I told them about my situation and the speciallyu ground the beans coarser for me - the result was a big improvement. No longer did I have to compromise on the amount of coffee or the tamping pressure in order to get a good shot. Hope this helps, Pablo

FionaK · February 2005

Thanks for both those replies. Very helpful. Followed the link given and now feel like I know a lot more about grinders (had a few questions answered there thank you very much Ken). And Pablo - very useful to have the experience of someone who has been through the process of trying to get good coffee from a Krups. I'm going to try getting some fresh coffee ground one grade coarser than usual for espresso machine, and hopefully in a small quantity only. Will let you know how I go. Now perhaps I should make a fresh batch of Friands to go with all this coffee! Fiona K

FreshCoffee2 · February 2005

One more thing. The most affordable grinder, with real and adjustable grinding plates (NOT spinning propeller / blender) that will do the job, is the little German made Emide. It sells at below $100.00 and has been shown to be reliable in service over prolonged periods with the kind of use that will be expected with a very small espresso machine. Keep away from anything else at below the $100.00 figure. The next step up would be the grinder mentioned by others here at around the $150.00ish mark. If you wish to pursue the Emide, please contact me off-forum through my company website link. Regardez, FC.

admin · February 2005

Hi Fiona - just to close off on what may have appeared as contradictory advice on fineness of the grind - typically you'd try and get the grind fairly fine if you're trying to get the ideal crema, however as I've mentioned many of the cheaper machines won't be able to pump water through a really fine grind - therefore a couple of suggestions from people familiar with this type of machine that you try a coarser grind...in theory, you should have much more success actually getting a shot out of a coarser grind on a Krups, but it won't be most amazing crema (in terms of your original question). One name you can try for good coffee (although not right on your doorstep) would be Danes Coffee in Brookvale; if Paul Jackson's available, you might see if he's got a minute, and he should be able to give you some fairly good advice on the grind for your type of machine. Best -A

FionaK · February 2005

Bought some more ground coffee today. Only Gloria Jeans, but half size pack and ground a little coarser. Just made a nice coffee with it. Fiona

pab · February 2005

Fiona, If you ever at Castle Towers go to Cafe Sul Pont (around the corner from McDonalds) and try some of their coffee. They might grind some especially for you. Cheers, Pablo

FionaK · February 2005

Thanks for that tip Pablo. Actually did buy the coffee from Gloria Jeans at Castle Towers, so will try the place you suggest next time. Now my coffee machine doesn't seem to be working properly anyway - wont froth milk and generally not working well. And just when I though I was getting somewhere! Will try a good clean out, but I don't think that's the problem. Anyone have or know of a second hand machine to sell or barter?

Fiona K

FreshCoffee2 · February 2005

Fiona. re: your comment that the machine is not operating / frothing properly. a) If you mean that is has the same "production" of steam as it had before but you are not able to get froth on the milk now, then it is most probably the milk and not the machine that is the problem; b) if the production of steam has actually diminished, the most common cause of this problem is milk that has gone hard and blocked the exit hole in the nozzle at the end of the steam pipe. Poke a pin or paper clip into the hole, then blow it out by producing steam. To stop this kind of thing happening, always blow steam / water out of the steam pipe AFTER steaming / frothing milk, as part of the steam pipe cleaning process. Regardez, FC.

FionaK · February 2005

Thanks FC, I'll give the pin thing a try. I have tried frothing soy milk (same brand as I usually use that froths really well), home made soy milk and cows' milk, all with same results. And I was getting lots of froth (closer to too much rather than not enough) with these milks before, so unlikely to be the milk considering changed with all three types. Before I try doing the milk, while doing (pulling?) the coffee, a lot of water comes out the steam spout. I believe that this Krups machine always puts out a bit of water first, but now it seems to be more - fills up a little milk jug, and this is a change from before, where there was a drip and then a bit after I turned the steam dial, now it comes out a lot and then hardly any water before steam when I turn the steam dial. So the nozzle doesn't seem to actually be blocked. This is why I thought it seemed faulty not just dirty. I will certainly try an extra good clean of everything though, and appreciate any suggestions. Fiona

FreshCoffee2 · February 2005

Dont know anything about the operating controls on your domestic machine however if I have understood correctly that water comes from the steam pipe while you are making coffee, the following has most probably gone wrong: a) in the event of it being a regular pump driven boiler machine, then the rubber seal in the steam tap/valve has perished or broken and needs replacing (a simple operation) OR b) in the event of it being a thermoblock machine, then something has probably gone wrong in the 2/3 way distributor valve and because you wouldnt normally bother trying to repair such a thing, it (the distributor valve)needs replacing. regardez, Fc.

Unknown · February 2005

I'm having a similar problem on my sunbeam cafe crema machine, except the steam just takes 10-30 minutes to come out. it makes a coffee fine, but steaming milk is impossible >.< The worst bit is that it's 1 month out of warranty.

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