Am I making a "better" coffee ?

Honest_Gaza · September 2005

Firstly, what makes a good coffee ?
In my opinion (and that is the good thing about opinions, they are neither right nor wrong), the answer to this is purely subjective.

I'm sure that some will have a list of criteria to which they will refer, and tick off accordingly. Me, I'm of the opinion that if I don't like the flavour, the aroma, the texture, the temperature....then it is not a good coffee for me.

I'm more interested in making a coffe that I like, rather than acquiring a taste for a coffee that I have made.

I have had an el-cheapo Sunbeam machine for 3-4 years and with this, I have produced cappuccinos that have made me very, very, happy.

Warning to all purists. You may not like what you are about to read so continue at your own peril.

1). The cappuccino must be hot (not warm, not cool)
2). The froth and general body of the cappuccino must be creamy (not watery and not fluffy like candy floss)
3). The coffee flavour must not overpower the taste of the froth (this is the point that will most likely cause the purists to choke on their "la-de-dars".....sorry, I can't spell "latte").

I am now the proud owner of a Sunbeam EM6900 (that's ok...I probably don't like your choice in cars). Again, some may still consider this to be an "el-cheapo" machine, but those of us who take delight in buying the kids that "new pair of sox they always wanted", will consider it a Ford Falcon as opposed to a Hyundai Excel.

With this new beast, I now appear to have the ability to create "crema", as was discussed at length on a previous post. Unfortunately, this now appears to be causing me some angst in relation to requirements 1 & 3 that I nominated above. So (if you're still with me), let's look at them in greater detail.

1). The cappuccino must be hot.
I have always poured boiling water into my cups to prepare them prior to making the cappucino. I have always used my hand as a temperature guage on the side of the milk jug to determine how hot the milk is. (If skin from your hand remains on the side of the jug...you may have made it too hot).
With the new machine, the final cappuccino is not as hot as with my old machine. Since my cup preparation and frothing of the milk technique has not changed, the only remaining variable is the espresso component. I believe that my earlier machine used steam pressure and the new one uses pump pressure....I'm open to correction on this.
Can this change in espresso method cause a significant change in final temperature ?
(Yes....this is where you can jump in an offer opinions)

2). Frothing of the milk.
Different machine which is just going to take a little getting used to before I produce the froth that I am after.

3). Coffee flavour permeating throughout the froth.
*Putting on flack jacket here*
As we go to the trouble of sprinkling a little layer of chocolate on the froth of a cappuccino, I like to be able to scoop a little of the froth with my spoon and not be over-powered by the coffee flavour. The coffee flavour will get it's chance when I take a good swig from the cup. You can usually tell when it's going to taste like coffee because of the colour of the froth. Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for virgin white, but I don't want mustard coloured froth either. I suspect that this is due to the "crema" that is produced during the espresso stage.
Yes ? No ?

In summary, my cappuccinos are no longer hot enough (even the wife agrees with this and would like me to solve the problem), and the flavour has changed somewhat (possibly due to this new phenomenon called "crema").

This whole thread was initiated because someone asked me what I thought of my new machine and was I making "better" coffee.

Unfortunately, I am yet to decide on the answer.

mattyj · September 2005

you're absolutely right - taste is entirely relative, so you drink whatever makes you happy. but I must disagree with you - purists don't even add milk to their coffee, so away with this la-di-da-latte business, and bring me my doppio ristretto. Or an espresso correto will do. Seriously, what I hear you saying is that you'd like hotter foam, and you'd like to be able to spoon off a few mouthfulls of milk foam first, with no coffee flavour, just a hint of chocolate sprinkle. Have you thought of getting a milk thermometer for your jug? I've never used one personally, but at least you could check what temperature you're heating to milk to, and then increase it by a few degrees. When you're heating milk, it hits a sweet spot at around 65^oC, then begins to boil at about 70ish. 65^o may seem to your mouth not hot enough, so you can go higher, but beware of boiling and curdling your milk. And as for coffee/crema-less milk foam on top - do you spoon out foam onto the top of the coffee when you've finished pouring? Rather than spooning it onto the coffee, why not just spoon it into your mouth? Or (I can't believe I've said any of this...) why not just scoop off the crema (you don't need to make it bold or put it in inverted comma's) before adding milk? Like you said (or implied), good taste is relative. All of this sounds like espresso-heresy to me, but if that's what you like, then I'm not going to complain.

Honest_Gaza · September 2005

Thanks for the response Mattyj (rather restrained I must say....was expecting worse....but I guess there's still time). Yes, I could make the milk hotter, but as you said, there's a fine line between hot and boiled. Are you sure that "crema" doesn't have to be in inverted commas ? :D So much easier than typing crema....(I'm just trying to give it some respect). ....as for scooping froth into my mouth from the jug....maybe not.

Unknown · September 2005

Awesome, what a great topic.. Gaza, don't beat yourself up about owning a Sunbeam.. by what you speak of, you love your coffee and that's all that matters. I to agree that "crema" effects the overall taste of a latte or a cappa but in a good way. I tend to adjust my tamp depending on the depth of (I call it hard flavour) that the drinker wants.. I myself like that strong hint of "crema" lurking with the froth. If you are the opposite, I'd go with mattj's suggestion of scooping some of the "crema" off before adding milk.. (even though that would go against the gods!!!) ;D Cheers, Paul

Reschsmooth · September 2005

Gaza I am a bit confused, in your previous thread (No Crema from Sunbeam) you bemoan the lack of crema - now you are saying that it is adversely affecting the taste of your coffee? ??? I will reiterate what Mattyj said and add my 2c - and this is not trying to be from a purist's point of view. I would suggest you get a thermometer to assit you in your milk frothing. Take the milk up to a max of 65'C as beyond this point you start burning the milk. If this is not hot enough for you, try frothing some milk to this temp and drink it by itself. Now try frothing your milk to the temp you were previously heating it to (assuming it was higher than this) and try it by itself. You may find that the added sweetness in the milk heated to 60-65 maybe more to your liking and compensate for the 'lack of heat'. After this point, you lose a lot of that sweetness. Another option to reduce the pervasiveness of the coffee flavour is to pour a shorter espresso (a ristretto?). Again, you may find that the overall flavour of the coffee is less, but the flavour that you do have is sweeter. (It is argued that the best flavours are in the first 15 seconds of a 30 second pour for 25-30 mls.) Finally, perhaps you should try a fresher roasted coffee as you may find that the taste of that coffee is more to your liking. At the end of the day, your tastes determine what you like and no-one should dismiss them. I prefer a double ristretto piccolo (sp) latte whereas my mother prefers a milk based drink where about two drops of coffee at most are in the cup - however, when I make her a coffee, I will make sure those two drops are the best I can extract! ;D Cheers Patrick

nunu · September 2005

Not all milks are equal however, as fat content and formulation play a big part in the overall flavour of the milk after heating. Skim milk boils at a much lower temperature than full cream. Then you have light, soy, omega 3 enriched, protein rich, and any other number of enhanced milks. It is now commonplace to find homogenised (i.e. the milk 'particles' are all of similar size and density) milk, and increasingly rare to find milk that's not homogenised. Pasteurisation is another process that will affect the flavour of the milk both before and after heating, UHT as well. From a purist standpoint, I try to liken it to tasting wine. Adding something to the wine is sacrilege. But I don't force others to drink black coffee. I usually give them a taste, just so they can see what the true coffee flavours are like. If they take a liking to black coffee, so be it. Another thing about coffee with milk; when you add milk, you lessen the concentration of antioxidants in the coffee, a similar effect happens in tea as well. So it is healthier to keep the coffee black. Black coffee also has no calories, whereas milk coffee drinks add calories and fat. In the end, however, it's just a matter of personal preference.

mattyj · September 2005

no, crema doesn't have to be in inverted comma's. It's just an italian word for what used to be known as 'scuma' (or scum, because it floats on top of the coffee - or so I've read). and really, typing (and saying) crema is easier than typing 'emulsified coffee oils' ... which doesn't have to be in comma's either. EDIT: re: pulling ristretto/weaker shots - this could be hard if you haven't got a really good grinder - maybe just prepare shots as normal, but stop the shot sooner - so you'd end up with say a 30ml double in 15seconds... Or, you could tip out some of the shot before adding milk.

Honest_Gaza · September 2005

Gaza I am a bit confused, in your previous thread (No Crema from Sunbeam) you bemoan the lack of crema - now you are saying that it is adversely affecting the taste of your coffee? ??? Cheers Patrick

Patrick....if you're confused....imagine how I felt when I finally achieved what I was after, but then wondered if achieving it was a good thing. My aim was to produce crema (among other things). Thanks to the advice of others on this forum, I achieved that. However, since it has now produced a "different" cappuccino than that which I have been making for 3-4 years, I am now asking myself if it is what I want.

Honest_Gaza · September 2005

In general, the responses have been good....although I'm sure that hospitals will be getting an influx of patients with sore tongues (where they have been bitten). The temperature thing may be easily solved by purchasing a thermometer....so I'll give that a try, although I'm still not sure why it has changed, apart from the different espresso method. I enjoy my coffee (cappuccinno) and don't mind fine tuning the end result....but I still question whether acquiring new tastes is the right answer.

Reschsmooth · September 2005

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, as long as it's mine! ;D

Remus · September 2005

a couple of points about temp first... are you using cold cups ? if so, this is going to significantly cool down your coffee. i have my cups sitting on top of the machine on the cup warmer all the time to keep them at a good temp. get a thermometer. i have used one for 10 years and it's now just part of my routine. i'm sure it will just become a simple part of yours to. dead easy. when i use the thermo i microfoam milk till about 100degF, then plunge the spout to heat alone up until about 140degF for warm and 150degF for hot. it's a very simple routine that will produce consistent results. preperation. ok, this may sound ridiculous but again, just part of my routine. i have everything prepared straight up to minimise idle time. ie: the milk is in the jug and ready to rock and roll before you even start your extraction. i also always run a spell of hot water thru the pf before the first cup to get rid of some of the older grind from the head and also to heat the pf to a good hot temp. the more and more you use your machine, the more meticulous you need to be with cleaning the head and pf as older risidual coffee will influence extractions. and i mean getting right up under the head with a cloth. you'll be surprised at how much crap you clean out of there. coffee flavour ? yupp, your 100% spot on about variations according to taste. my wife for example doesn;t like strong flavoured beans while i prefer a very strong coffee. one is not better than the other. i haven;t noticed that the crema influences the taste so much as to make it bad tasting. it's a slight variation on taste in my experience and that taste when you add milk should be very minimal. i'd have a very close look at how much blonding your letting into the cup for your extraction. getting the 20s pour is a guide only and if you're allowing 10 seconds of pale fluid into the cup to get you to 20s then you need to readjust again. i've seen pours in cafes where i just know its gonna be crap coffee just by watching what they allow to go into the cup. basically what i look for in an extraction immediately after hitting the lever, (or button is your case), is the following: 1. pump working but nothing coming out. 2. a few drips 3. a very dark thick black coffee which is so syrupy that the streams bend inwards toward eachother. 4. dark fluid that is coming more freely 5. very clear and defined tiger striping 6. plain, light blond colour for only a couple of seconds. i'm guessing that you're extarction is very liquidy from go to whoa with the end being a good long stream of light fluid. this can create some bitterness and aftertaste in the coffee. maybe not, but that would be my guess. the other point is of course the fact that you're on the learning curve and you're coffee is only going to get better and better with more practice and more importantly as you use fresher beans. this again goes back to the grinder/ home roasting option.

nunu · September 2005

Spot on Remus. You can only stress one thing...Mise en place. Be prepared to make coffee, the less time you have idling around getting this or that, the better and hotter the cup will be. Depending on the machine, it can take anywhere from 15-30 seconds, to well over a minute to get the milk done. Since extraction is under 30 seconds most times, do the milk first. This also gives it a bit of time to get the bigger bubbles out. Getting the grind and tamp right is the key to the honey-like pour of a good shot. Practice makes perfect.

Honest_Gaza · September 2005

Thanks Remus, I'm now the proud owner of a coffee thermometer (should freak the wife out)....I'll take it for a test drive tonight. Yes, I am ensuring the cups are hot prior to making the coffee. I use boiling water in the cup instead of relying on the machine to warm them up. Gaza

Remus · September 2005

you do realise the thermometer is for the milk don't ya mate ?

nunu · September 2005

It may be one that says "Rare, medium rare, medium, medium well, well done" When you get to the last one, pat yourself on the back and say well done mate ;D

Honest_Gaza · September 2005

you do realise the thermometer is for the milk don't ya mate ?

Oooops....don't you hate it when you check for replies too late. Now I know why she jumped so high.

Honest_Gaza · September 2005

Temperature prob now resolved. It appears that I underestimated how hot you could make the milk before it reached the point of no return. Thermometer did the trick (thanks Remus). The crema issue is gradually being resolved as I experiment a little with amount of coffee, and tamping (or would that be tampering ?) My biggest problem at the moment, which is obviously user mis-operation, is the consistency of my froth.

Trussell · September 2005

Heh heh, Thermometers really show you how useless your hand is as a mesurement tool. my roaster (an espresso drinker and fairly new to the business) couldn't figure out why his coffee wasn't hot, why he couldn't texture his milk and had to play scizzor, paper, rock with the milk jug to make a cap... told him to use the thermometer and he was like "ooh! how interesting..." generally i go by steam (tip just below surface) to 40DegC for cafe lattes, and 60DegC for capps. The manual for the em6900 is pretty good, so if you listen to your milk, and watch your temperature, the consistency will come...

nzroaster · September 2005

Heh heh, Thermometers really show you how useless your hand is as a mesurement tool.

Going to have to disagree there. Your hand just requires a little help from your eyes and ears, and a little time and practice. I can get between 62 and 66 everytime (aiming at 64) without a thermometer. My barista can get between 63 and 65 consistantly and 90% of the time that we check he is within .5 degree. My main problem with the thermometer is that it trains you to rely on it( eg. heat to x degrees then plunge). By all means use it to check your temp, but learn to trust your senses.

Remus · September 2005

oh hell yeah i agree. i know people that can get great temp accuracy just by touch. i'm not one of them however. lol. i need accessories. :P no biggie using a thermometer for me. i mean come on Jas, RELY on it ? mate, we aint talking jet engines here !

Remus · September 2005

My biggest problem at the moment, which is obviously user mis-operation, is the consistency of my froth.

mattyj · September 2005

Honest Gaza - having a thermoblock machine, I'm not sure if you can partially open the steam ... with my old sunbeam, it was either 'on' or 'off'. If you can vary the force of steam coming out, then Remus' advice is good, but I've decided to try and adjust my technique to the force of steam from my machine. Depending on what kind of foam you want, (you can practise this with a jug of water), try to find a position in the jug where the flow of steam into the milk forces the surface to roll over itself. When you achieve this (it can be harder than it sounds), larger foam bubbles are broken up and mixed in with the rest of the milk and you get a more ... consistent consistency (?!?) to your milk. If you get this down-pat, you'll end up with microfoam (no need to italicise that either), which is basically tight foam with bubbles so small you can't even see them. Then again, if you like a mountain of foam on your cappa that resembles Mt. Everest, I can point you in the direction of a cafe that employs a milk-frothing technique reminiscent of masturbation, and quite effective at producing said mountains of bubbly foam. As for me, I've never used a milk thermometer - I've trained my hand, and I'm consistent enough to suit myself. To my thinking, watching (1) the shot of espresso (gotta love the HX's/Dual Thermoblock's ability to simultanously pull shots and steam milk!), (2) the surface movement of the milk, (3) a thermometer, and (4) feeling the side of the jug, whilst having a hand free to turn off the steam and stop the shot is a bit far beyond me.

Honest_Gaza · September 2005

All good advice boys. Mattyj....my previous Sunbeam was on/off for froth, but the new machine does allow variable control. I must admit, I never thought of practicing with water. It would probably give the cow out the back more time to rest between drinks.

Remus · September 2005

lol @ the cow. when i bought my first machine 10 years ago and got my training, they had me frothing water for a good 30mins to an hour until they thought i had my technique down. i personally can;t cop bubbles, just my preference. so frothing the milk for me is as important as getting the coffee shot itself.

FreshCoffee2 · September 2005

Gentlemen, thermometers. A young lady taking part in this weeks coffee classes...working fulltime in a cafe, with some years experience, not even one of our own coffee clients, but coming in to further her interest.... "Despises" (her words) thermometers...said you should be able to do it by hand, said she could rely on her hand. We asked her to froth some milk using her own technique, then put the thermometer in. It was lucky to reach 55. This kind of temperature is guaranteed to result in a complaint about "cold coffee". Apparently her boss has been at here about the "coffee" not being hot enough...she was putting it down to his lack of expertise in all things coffee. Beginners and experienced people alike need to have thermometers on hand all the time to check what they are doing. Some might say that beginners need to use the thermometer quite a bit, atleast initially, otherwise there will be no CONSISTENCY in what they are doing. Cafe clients like to use the "consistency" line as a rod to beat their suppliers over the head with....so we need to be very careful to contain all references to "consistency" to a manageable level...which is zero. In my view thermometers are a necessary piece of equipment and to say otherwise is to do many beginners here a disservice, because the lack of a thermometer may actually stop a lot of them from getting up and running quickly and properly after the purchase of their new toys, and can lead to a great deal of unnecessary frustration long term if they think that they SHOULD be able to do something by hand but cant, then feel somehow inadequate for not being able to do something that apparently...everyone else says they can...! I still use a thermometer every time because there is no way I am going to waste my time making a coffee for my own pleasure, that does not satisfy. I am one of these people that tends to stop too soon when not using a thermometer, and I end up with luke warm milk. Se la vie! So the bottom line is, dont let anyone tell you you should be able to froth milk without a thermometer. If you want to use one, or if you think you need one...get one, use it, and dont be afraid to bring it out to use in front of other people. Refusing to be made to feel inadequate by all you asbestos handed milk frothers out there! Regardz, FC.

Honest_Gaza · September 2005

A comforting response FC.

Remus · September 2005

lol asbestos hands. funny stuff. ;D

nzroaster · September 2005

I sense this becoming a heated debate. 1st: I didn't say to not use a thermometer, i said to use it to check your temp, just not as a crutch while texturing milk. 2nd: FC, if you cant tell temp with your hand, how can you tell it with your mouth? 3rd: Remus, it may not be rocket science, but unfortunately when you are training barista who are preparing your coffee in a location you have no control over(as in a cafe using my beans) it is nice to know or at least think that they are doing it well, and can self evaluate.

FreshCoffee2 · September 2005

NZ, if your reference to heated debate is regarding my post above, please let me assure you I am very relaxed and my post was simply me, putting my point of view in response to several other posts, as we all have. Have a great day...honestly...its spring, its warm, the flowers are blooming, the atmoshpere is relaxed, & the clients are happy...and what more could we want on a lazy Friday afternoon... Regardz, FC.

Honest_Gaza · September 2005

NZ, Have a great day...honestly...its spring, its warm, the flowers are blooming, the atmoshpere is relaxed, & the clients are happy...and what more could we want on a lazy Friday afternoon...

Reschsmooth · September 2005

NZ, Have a great day...honestly...its spring, its warm, the flowers are blooming, the atmoshpere is relaxed, & the clients are happy...and what more could we want on a lazy Friday afternoon...

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