is ECM that great ?

michael

i see everyone is raving about the giotto premium but have been reading the prices also.
2550 retail    ECM A1   4250           thats top dollar.

I have an older home pro machine thats $2000 thats all copper inside.  no plastic lines.  The Giotto and the A1 Veneziano have plastic tubing to steam and tea  arms .(and elsewhere)    Why did ECM scrounge on this and try to pass them off as the so called "rolls royce machine"

A rolls has all copper.

Yes im sure it works fine but over time surely this weakens in however many years ?? Leaks etc ??

why not put copper in spend 10 dollars more and not have this problem.

Look under the bonnet, for $2550 id expect more.

Anyway thats my 2 bobs worth.

Anyone care to voice an opinion.

Am I too harsh. ??

M

over_extracted

Hi M ecm machines that have this plastic tubing inside the steam wand have it there so the wand wont get too hot and it olso makes it easier to clean the wand as the milk wont stick to it.If you have a problem with it you can just take it off and have it the old fashion way like i did ,it works great for me i have no problems with it.i olso have a giotto at home together with a veneziano at work and never had i have a problem, this are top quality machines so i dont think the deserve the wrap you have given them .over many years i have used quite few different machine and so far this are the best.good luck OE

mick

overextracted i think you talking about the low heat steam wands.....their exterior items...and im told they have teflon inside... think you have mis understood. im talking about under the cover of the machines.  not outside.   the teflon lines inside that run from boiler to steam arms and hot water arms...for the A1 ECM your talking about   a 3500-4500 dollar machine...(depending where you buy).you would expect all copper lines like most other upper end machines in that price range. yes the ecm  is  a nice machine,,,,but not for that price. look under the cover of the machine.......then find one a similar price....im sure the ecm will have a few leaks before others in that price range. i was amazed to see all the teflon-plastic  lines inside the machine. i saw at a recent coffee display of machines 1 group copper tubing on all the machines in that price range...especially to steam arm. its nice but it should be better. cheers

FreshCoffee2

Michael, I'm in the coffee machine industry, my company imports machines and has been doing so for many years, and the facts of the matter are: The Giotto is an E61 clone. The E61 design is the best thing that ever happened to commercial espresso machine design. It goes further than just the chunky group head, but most householders only know about this bit. The Giotto has finally been placed in a very well finished body. It works very well, and looks good. And that my friends is all there is too it. The rest is a lot of hoo haa that is spun around and around on the internet within self interest groups and from one group to the other, biulding the reputed quality of the machine out of all proportion by what simply amounts to rumour mongering by people that have picked up on some test that some bloke in a foreign country did on this machine a while back...and because it was posted and subsequently read on the net, it must be gods truth. If that sounds harsh think about it, and note I did not say a single bad word about this machine...! But there are other E61 clones and they work just as well, some have fewer "features", and many dont have a good standard of finish. In consumer terms, that's about it. Some manufactureres use flexible "nylon" tubing to cut down on vibration. Some machines vubrate more than others and by this I dont mean one model to the next, but INDIVIDUAL machines. In all my years I dont think I've seen one of these lines fail yet, as a service provider I dont see the problem for the cloients and nor for the provider that might have to guarantee a possible failure. If you want to see a similar machine with equally excellent exterior fibnish, but with all copper internal piping, that also works in excellent fashion, take a look at the Diadema Juniors in the equipment section of my company website. I have no sympathy when it comes to price. Many people look upon their coffee and machine merchant as some kind of bloke that should work for nothing. Many clients get around in beemers, and buy $10000.00 plasma TV screens for their in house movie theatre...then they come in and ask "yes, but what's MY price"...? when looking at the high quality coffee equipment you sell. My view is that the espressio machine is the cheapest piece of lifestyle equipment on the market in relative terms. Competition takes care of pricing... A semi-commercial machine costs as much as a commecial machine to manufacture.... A one group machine costs not much less than a 2 group machine to manufacture... Machines with a much more well finished look, do and should cost you more than something that does not look so good and in the consumer world image and looks are everything particularly if you want to pitch yopur product into the highest end that commands more money. Hope this helps, FC.

over_extracted

I still stand by these machines as they have not let me down yet.GOOD luck OE

pab

I can't get by without my Giotto!!!

john

Michael I think that as opposed to being too harsh you may be misinformed! There has been a lot of press about the Giotto being the Rolls Royce of espresso machines etc, but I think the comparison was made by others and not by ECM. As a user and a reseller of ECM espresso machines, I find it hard to understand why you have a problem with the plastic tubing. Have you ever done a price comparison between copper and plastic tubing??? I think that you will find in many cases quality plastic tubing is more expensive than copper tubing. Have you ever looked under the bonnet of a Rolls Royce? I am sure that you would find a number of parts that could be replaced by more expensive components or NASA technology or the like. Michael, I am not sure if you are aware that water is corrosive and has a tendency to pick things up from most things it comes into contact with. Also, copper has a tendency to leach back into the water. I have seen the insides of some pretty interesting copper pipes and copper tubing. Copper can also crack/split and leak.  Personally, I would prefer to have my water pass through quality 'plastic' tubing than copper anyday. As a user/owner of ECM machines, (Giotto for over 12 months and Veneziano A1 for 3 months), I have not had any reason for concern over the tubing. The ECM machines have performed to my expectations. After purchasing my first Giotto,I was impressed that I decided to resell them. My customers to-date have had nothing but praise for the machine. Expensive!!! May be so. But in this world, I am sure that you are aware you get what you pay for. I have seen a number of so called espresso machines in Department stores with higher price tags, that do not have the performance of the ECM Giotto. Also I am sure you will find then virtually all plastic. For me the Veneziano A1 is a machine that I purchased for a specific purpose. I checked out a number of commercial single group machines, but they did not have an in-built water reservoir. It is also 10 amp. It is an ideal commercial machine for mobile espresso demonstrations or for mobile training purposes. I believe that it is worth the extra few bucks. Apart from that it is an awesome machine to have hanging about in the kitchen. Michael, I could go on about this, but believe that it would bore most Forum persons. Good luck with your $2000 all copper home pro machine. JD

Unknown

could write a long one on this subject...its a good one

Unknown

Re  ECM I have ECM veneziano A1  also      for home great machine overkill;   I make 4 milk drinks a day and a few parties but its a beauty, I didnt know it had plastic inside till i read this forum and looked underneath covers:  Yes I was surprissed as it seems so solid: runs great though so i think it doesnt matter, i too would have thought from steam arms re pressure you would need copper but there you go: the only complaint is the steam arm gets hot; i read elsewhere they are meant to be cool to touch. Can anyone shed light there:  I bought it about 15 months ago.  Is it an old model ?  it looks the same as new one.  Can I modify arms to cool ones if they are a new item/?? JD   nice reading your advice:   thank you ??  Can you shed light on steam arm getting hot ?? does yours ?? Can I change arms if my model is older >?? And Michael       ECM is great::::teflon and all: Im sure if it breaks down i can get parts as its a so called e61 clone          correct me if im wrong JD or Fresh Coffee                                                      and in 5 years in stainless it still looks amazing:   unlike plastic 2000-3000 dollar saeco automatics: A question  ???      whats a one year old A1 venianzo worth   ??        my friend was offered one for 2400 dollars which i thought was good:  I paid nearly 4000: cheers to all peter

john

Peter Glad you are enjoying the A1. I am meeting with the importer later today and will ask if the steam arms can be changed. The newer models have cool steam arms. I will post answers to your other questions later, have to rush. JD

john

Peter Double checking on the steam arms with ECM Italy, will get back to you. I do not think that having an A1 on the kitchen bench is overkill. I would rather say it is an awsome machine to have on the bench. There are a number of other so called espresso coffee machines that are up there in price, but have trouble doing anything except a lousy 15 second pour. I would not worry about the lack of copper tubing. The integrity of the machine has not been compromised. As I said earlier I would prefer quality plastic tubing to a leaching copper tube. Parts should not be a problem. If your friend has been offered a 1 year old machine for $2400, I think that it should be a good buy. Obviously, have it checked out first. Do you have a grinder? If so what type. What coffee do you use? JD

Unknown

thanks very much john my friend bought the one year old A1 yesterday. Paid $3200 for it in the end. Got my figure wrong. He had it looked at. In an as new condition. Your right about looks, the machine on my kitchen bench is a piece of art i think.   my friends often ask about buying one when they see it and taste the coffee. I could be an ECM re seller im sure. I have a LUX grinder which i bought in italy which i have seen here as a nemox.   it seems pretty good. a bit messy but good. i quite like a isomac grinder i saw for 320 last week,   stainless steel like the ECM. dont like the looks of the huge grinders and the LUX seems pretty good.  Whats your thoughts there. keep the LUX or buy the Isomac.   i think its the machino ?? Thanks for your efforts re the steam arms on the A1.  it seems a minor quibble but im curious.  Maybe they are the so called cool arms but dont seem to be. and being 15 months old i think may be old arms. If i could change them i would though. I am going to plumb my machine in soon.  a month or so. i am told i need a part.  I have looked on the web for instructions but no luck.  my friend is plumbing his as well.  Over pour is okay but not filling it will be great and drip tray as well.  my kitchen is easily adapted. Have you plumbed yours ??   is it an easy job for an amateur ??   or am i out of my depth.  looked basic inside but im sure there is a trick.  saw the brass latch under drip tray for plumb in etc . anyway glad someone else has an A1 at home.   i thought i was the only coffee freak out there in the home. ecm is a beast. cheers peter

sharkboy

I have a LUX grinder which i bought in italy which i have seen here as a nemox.   it seems pretty good. a bit messy but good. i quite like a isomac grinder i saw for 320 last week,   stainless steel like the ECM.   I dont like the looks of the huge grinders and the LUX seems pretty good.  Whats your thoughts there. keep the LUX or buy the Isomac.   i think its the machino ??

I think the grinder you're referring to is the Isomac Granmacinino. I'm not to sure how to pronounce that   http://www.coffeewarehouse.com.au/coffee_isomac.htm I thought about buying it for a while. My girlfriend liked its compact size and chrome exterior. I was inclined to agree with her. I think it has conical burrs but I could be mistaken. If it had been closer to $300 I probably would have bought it, but in the end I went the Cunil Cafe de Tranquilo. The Tranquilo isn't as pretty as the Granmacinino, but what it lacks aesthetically, it makes up for with solid no nonsense performance. I think the chrome Granmacinino would look good sitting next to a Giotto or Veneziano, but I can't comment on its grinding capabilities.

Reschsmooth

I have the Granmacinino's little brother from Isomac which is a little more boxy than the GM, but works well. Ok, it has a horizontal chute compared to the downward sloping chute on the GM, but aesthetically, it does look good (I was surprised when I first saw it in the chromed flesh at how small it was). Apart from that, it is solid and the only other quibble is the stepped adjustment. BTW, anyone know how to pull it apart to give it a thorough clean? Patrick

FreshCoffee2

Peter, the nemox (lux) and isomac grinders are essentially the same story. In my honest opinion if you go from one to the other, you will only be wasting your money (and my company sells both). Many like the look of the isomac granmacinino and if they want it, we sell it to them. Having said that however it is worth noting that for not much more you can buy a small commercial grinder like the Cafe Tranquilo mentioned in the last post. The difference (between lux/isomac and cafe tranquilo) is marked and the small commercial grinder is of vastly better quality (except in the looks department for those looking for lots of shiny stainless steel). The trouble is that many people buy things on looks rather than on how best they deliver the goods. This is ofcourse also influenced by whether the vendor of the goods has the clients best interests at heart, or his own, when giving advice! Cheers, FC.

Unknown

thanks all re grinder. i will keep the lux for time being.  peter getting back to ECM. in my  ECM veneziano A1  when i looked inside (re teflon tubing)    i think the pump said rotary on it.  i see from forums that there is lots of chat re vibe pumps and rotary. am i right...has my ecm A1  got a rotary pump. ????????? is this superior to the vibe pump   ???       seeing as i paid a lot for the machine i hope so. thankyou peter

FreshCoffee2

The rotary or impeller pump has a round brass body and is driven by an electric motor usually bolted to the bottom of the chassis of thr machine. The body of the motor is a grey finned arrangement. If the A1 has this and I have no reason to doubt, it is quite easy to find when you look inside the back of the machine. The electric vibrating (solenoid) pump  takes up a lot less space as it does not require a hefty electric motor to drive it and is used in semi commercial machines because overall they are much smaller (and therefore have a lot less available space inside) than a regular sized commercial machine. You have to be careful with what is written about the differences between rotary and solenoid pumps, on the net, in coffee "head" type sites...speaking with many years experieince in business in the coffee and machine game...in domestic use you would find NO difference in the performance of your espresso machine if you changed it from one type of pump to the other. The solenoid and rotary pumps are both set (in an espresso machine) to operate at the same pressure, and both are able to be regulated by those with the requisite experience to do so, but only if a pressure adjustment is required. In fact, in the real world where domestic machines fitted with solenoid pumps probably outnumber commercial machines fitted with rotary pumps, we see many more failed rotary pumps than we do solenoid pumps. This may well be due to the fact that commercial machines get a lot more use than domestic machines, however the fact remains that we get very few problematic solenoid pumps in practice. A rotary (impeller) pump costs a lot more than a solenoid (vibrating) pump. The rotary pump requires an expensive electric motor to drive it. Therefore to set up a machine with a rotary pump costs quite a bit more than to set one up with a vibrating pump. This adds to the cost of manufacture of the commercial, over an semi-commercial machine. During the brewing of espresso the water pump (irrespective of type) is set to operate at between 8 and 10 bars or atmospheres pressure. The max RATED pumping pressure of either vibrating or rotary pumps intended for this purpose is usually in the vicinity of 16 bars so both operate way under their max capacity. Hope this helps, FC.  

Unknown

thanks FC yes its a large motor so you confirm it must be a rotary: thankyou as you say guess in my home requirement makes little difference but nice all the same to see i got what i paid for cheers peter

Unknown

Dear JD Did you hear back at all re the steam arms being changed.???   my ECM 15 month old i thought may have older hot steam arms.   could be wrong, but they get hot. have they changed ?? see a few post back in this thread. you were going to maybe find out from italy weather this was right or not. hope this is or was no trouble for you. how is your ECM A1 going.   still pumping the steam ???  my friends always look in amazement at this machine and 1 has since bought a giotto premium after having visited a few times. how hard have you worked this machine. we are having a christmas do soon and was going to cater to 40 guests with it.  can i steam that fast as they are all milk drinkers. i see also some water purifaction equipment on line for sale and was soon looking into it as im quite keen to stop emptying drip tray etc. i was only going to put a online filter in but may do softener as well.  running my drip tray into dishwasher outlet.  i turn off power at night but didnt count on turning off water as well.  i ve been reading the thread on water quality. cool steam arms........thanks  sorry i got off topic. best regards peter hindmarsh

john

Peter I apologise for the delay. Sometimes things get lost in the translation. I spoke to the ECM importer this morning and advised me that the steam arms are not interchangable. On the christmas party. I do not think that you will have a problem with the A1. Just keep up the water in the tank and do not use a 10 gallon hat for texturing the milk. I suggest either a 600 ml or 1 Litre jug depending on your ability to crunch out the coffees. I have not worked the machine toooo hard, however, I would not see any problems in pushing it. Re the water filters, check out the post that is going on about water treatment. If you need any specific info contact Brad from the For Sale section. I can also help you with info on softeners if you need it. Enjoy your A1. PS what coffee are you using??? JD

Unknown

Thanks JD the coffee im using is vittoria.  Plus I try a few local roasters for variety and to give them business/\ I like a very strong latte mostly or long machiato.   No Mocca. So looks like i have old steam arms and cant change them. No big deal.  I look at them and they are easily screwed off but obviously the new model arms must have different threads etc. ?? One more question JD.  And off more interest to me............ STEAM POWER..I see the giotto premium has 30 percent more steaming power (over old giotto)  due to larger lines etc.  This is from a website. They launched the cool arms at the same time. Does this mean the new arms are larger internally in diameter....ie does my older ECM A1 have the same steaming power of your newer one. ??(yours)   Have internal lines of the newer A1 changed ?? Trival stuff I know but I like to know how it all works and have quite an interest in these machines. Anyone else who knows the working of ECM feel free to answer also. again many thanks peter

Reschsmooth

I work in finance and don't have an ECM, so am perfectly suited to interject: I would have thought larger (diameter) lines would have reduced the pressure and therefore steam power? Any science dudes out there who can agree?

john

Peter I have not used the earlier A1. From what I understand the modifications to the Giotto Premium were more than just the steam arms. I will confirm what was done and get back. If you have problems with your steam arms (ie toooo hot) let me know and I may be able to get you a rubber guide to help. JD

Unknown

thanks JD and others     your right there were more mods done than just steam arm.  to premium giotto   ..     im just shortening post. my question i guess is were mods done when they changed steams arms and mods etc on giotto did they also upgrade similar mods to A1.               if that makes sense. maybe A1 was already pumping out the extra steam,,,,,but seeing as steam arms were changed on both machines i just wonder were mods done to internals of A1 like the giotto premium.    which end result was more steam and hence premium model.     did ECM A1 get arms and extras ?? thanks peter hindmarsh ps  thanks for rubber stop...im okay without.

john

A bit more info about the steam wands on the Giotto and A1 The new style Giotto Premium model, has special improved features that include the new look and extended commercial style lengths of the ECM patent "Non burn steam and hot water arms". This feature produces an increase of up to 40% in a dryer steam pressure, perfect for texturing the best silky smooth cafe style milk coffees. The 360 degree Non Burn wands are an insulated sheath (ECM patent) that does not allow the wand to loose lateral heat, therefore  what comes out the end of the steam tip is pure dry steam that has kept its temperature. The above design, a larger valve opening and a smoother delivery of steam via the tip and hole design contribute to the increase in steam pressure. I would assume the newer steam wand would also give the latest A1 better steaming capabilities. Hope this makes sense. JD

Gonzo

I've been waiting to see if someone else would come in on this but am now forced to interject with the following. I respectfully suggest that the provision of "no burn" or "dryer steam" or "insulated sheath" or whateveryacallthem patented newfangled steam arms on a giotto are nothing short of a sales gimmick... Anyone that cant get adequate texture or froth from a standard steam pipe, from such a machine, no matter how small it is compared to its bigger model brothers, needs to take a lesson or three or get some experience which can only be obtained from practice. These machines together with a handful of others in the same market grouping, already have the best steaming capacity of most machines the same size that they compete with. Increases in the "froth-ability" of a machine can be achieved incredibly simply by service people in the know, without the manufacturer resorting to sales gimmicks and marketing one upmanship. When are manufacturers going to stop pandering to clients that dont know how to use the machine they buy, that already works perfectly well and properly. G. always choking

john

G Having used extensively both models of the Giotto ie the Classic and the Premium, I believe that the changes or modifications made to the Premium were an improvement. I do not regard these changes as a marketing gimmick.... etc. I also think that the "no burn" steam wands are a plus, especially in the domestic environment. Most persons who purchase these machines are not trained baristi. Any technical improvements from the manufacturer to make life easier for these persons makes life easier for us resellers. My clients, mainly coffee lovers, and Mums and Dads, comment on how easy it is to texture great milk. JD

Unknown

Dear G and others, my friend put me onto this site as Im also interested in buying giotto premium hence looking here. Im also interested in a slightly bigger machine for my office and saw the ECM veneziano on this web site and it suits my needs a little better.  I see its electronic which would suit my staff more. I was wondering too now about steam power after reading about new steam arms ? I see the ECM veneziano has a bigger boiler so does that mean it would give me even more steam. ??   I used to have an old gaggia commercial machine at work but it was from my old boss who left, who picked it up at an auction years ago and was really fiddly and dirty. I mean marked from cafe use etc. We all hate it. Slow, and messy. So the cost difference isnt too much of a problem as will will buy it from company funds. So in other words I think we will get veneziano. But is it much better than smaller model besides the boiler and electroniuc pour. Is it worth it I guess Im asking ?? Long story short, besides my drip tray plumbed which i already have and love what benifits will the bigger boiler etc give me over the smaller machine. And to ever runs this site I must say its good to find as I often thought besides coffee company people etc I was the only coffee ecentric out there as Im so sick of getting terrible coffee from so many average cafes. thanks damien

Gonzo

John, I take your point,     but in industry we deal every day with people who ought to know better, who just cant resist coming up with how they nearly burned themselves on the hot water coming from the espresso machine, or how they burned themselves on the steam / er, and how it shouldn't be like that.       If you buy or work an espresso machine, domestic or commercial, surely you accept the thing is nothing short of being a hot water system and steamer. Ergo, if someone hasn't already mentioned it, it's hot and capable of burning you.     Mums, Dad's and all other coffee lovers never had any trouble texturing their milk before when this machine was previously fitted with a "regular" steam pipe, except if the technique hadn't been explained to them, if they hadn't had enough practice, if the milk is not frothing periodically due to lipolysis, or if they were simply incompetent.     G.   I really have no objection to a manufacturer improving their product, but it's simply amazing how we (they) have to keep "improving" or developing things in order to account for the lowest common denominator, ie incompetent operators.

john

Damien I tried to send you an email, however, it bounced back. If you want more info on the ECM A1 or Giotto please contact me directly. I usually have one of each available for comparison. John

HD

peter i used to work with a Veneziano 2-group (A2) and it came with the old steam wands. after a short while the brass threads on the right arm wore away and the whole arm came off one day. luckily it happened just as the new scald-free ones were being brought in. so i replaced them, easy. it just needed a new steam valve body for the new arm to fit into and voila. just be careful, the design of the new arms are left/right specific. hope i was of some help. hd