Ponte Vecchio Lusso - advice please?

Moon

Blimey .. anyone care to weigh in here to explain to Dry bean what's bean going on in this thread? Nah .. I'll get back with an explanation of what's bean going on and how my rating system came to be.

mycuppa

Moony 'ol chap. Perhap what DB is referring to is that when we traditionally evaluate coffee, we take many aspects (or characteristics) into account, e.g. a coffee may have more body and therefore the score for the "body" component is rated separately to the score, say....for instance the sweetness, acidity, flavor, finish, etc. and on it goes. In other words, you break-down the various characteristics and score them individually, tally up the result and then provide an overall score. Here is the result for one of my raw coffees that has been evaluated by multiple Q-graders (at the broker) - they arrived at a score of 86.5. They did not use espresso & milk to arrive at that score because they used a formal, structured (controlled) technique, e.g. traditional cupping used to grade coffees. Fragrance / Aroma 8 Aftertaste 8.25 Flavour 8.25 Acidity 8 Body 8 Balance 8 I can see what DB is saying and I tend to agree to some extent. Maybe (and I'm taking a shot in the dark here) the system you are using is reference-based, relying upon recall and comparative sampling (which may be tending towards a beta-binomial distribution), e.g. you know what is good and your reference point is marked up or down based upon a "set" of desirable attributes, which may be subject to change over time. I can understand your rankings and they are simple (easy) and conclusive I would encourage you to consider breaking your criteria down into the various sections like the example above as it will help you focus more keenly on that particular score - even if you average it out, etc. or come up with your own set of ratings and overall score system, etc. Keep going by all means......

Moon

on 1417346457:

Maybe (and I'm taking a shot in the dark here) the system you are using is reference-based, relying upon recall and comparative sampling (which may be tending towards a beta-binomial distribution), e.g. you know what is good and your reference point is marked up or down based upon a "set" of desirable attributes, which may be subject to change over time. I can understand your rankings and they are simple (easy) and conclusive

Thanks for that mycuppa - well said ... hmm .. 'beta-binomial distribution' .. impressive, I'll go with that. I like simple and uncomplicated  :thumb: As I'd mentioned some time ago .. I would really need to do a training course to identify the different characteristics that you refer to .. with examples of each lined up so that I can taste them to compare the differences - as in this one has low acidity .. this medium and this one high acidity, so that I can identify it when tasting other coffees. Flavour, aftertaste and body are ok .. yet exactly what am I looking for in 'balance' in say a blend? I'm a little out of my league and wouldn't feel comfortable pretending that I know what I'm talking about compared to a trained and experienced professional grader or blender when it comes to 'balance' Heck .. I reckon I'm lucky to bluff my way through as it is The idea of rating a coffee probably started when in a Cafe .. I asked a friend ..'What do you think of the coffee?' and they'd reply 'nice' I'd wonder how 'nice' - and would ask for a rating out of 10 to get a more accurate idea of what they thought of the coffee. With my new equipment .. and starting this thread, I felt the most informative way of describing the coffees I was making was to give them a rating out of 10 .. along with tamp, dose, grind - rather than simply saying that I think this one is better than the last. I figured this would  give those helping me a better understanding of where I was at.. so that they could throw in some tips about what I may be doing wrong .. or what I should try. Ratings also make it more interesting with the flops and successes .. the highs & lows. It has been more about getting the grind, dose, tamp, micro foam, pour and shot volume right. You are exactly right in this - ''e.g. you know what is good and your reference point is marked up or down based upon a "set" of desirable attributes, which may be subject to change over time'' It would seem that it is a natural progression to move on to educating my palate about the above characteristics, along with identifying what flavours are present - to assess which ones I like and which I don't ..  so that I can look for these when trying other beans. On the other hand .. I do like the idea of keeping my ratings simple. I doubt whether the average Jane who I may be having a coffee with at the local Cafe would be particularly interested in the detail about the body or being asked whether she/he can detect the raspberry notes. I wonder how many readers of this thread are into it? Hey folks .. if you are .. sorry, you need to look elsewhere For now anyway. This thread is meant to be a light-hearted account of my personal coffee experience, and how I'm handling different beans on my equipment .. not a serious assessment of the beans used .. as there are many variables as you know that are affecting the outcome .. so ol' Moony doesn't want to be portraying himself as a serious Coffee Guru .. cause :lamp: I am clearly not. Besides, I doubt too many Coffee connoisseurs tune into this thread for anything other than a bit of a larf .. which is good. Who knows .. if I happen to make a cracker and rate it a 9.4/10 .. someone out there might look it up and order 500g to give it a try on their $200 Sunbeam and $150 DeLonghi grinder. <

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It doesn't seem all that long ago that I was there. Actually, this is the target audience - who would probably gain the most from reading the thread. Those who are thinking about an upgrade .. and considering a lever machine rather than go for say, a Silvia. It gives them an idea of what they will be going through with a heads-up about what they need to consider along their journey if they happen to get a PV Lusso .. or any other machine to start getting serious about making good quality coffee. When you start talking about acidity, balance, notes of melon etc .. you are leaving your average coffee punter behind who doesn't understand this stuff. Will I be moving on to discussing how much I enjoyed the higher acidity of the Ethiopian over the PNG .. to Brett? Possibly .. I'll mull over the idea. Are you up for it Brettmate? Maybe if I was seriously into becoming a Coffee critic for the local newspaper and travel the State I'd be getting into it .. hmm? There's an idea  :lamp:

Dry_bean.

Not trying to throw cold water on your project Moon, full marks for effort. From my view point (not a coffee professional, simply a very interested hobbyist) it seems to me an overly complex evaluation process for an amateur to use, i.e. allocating points out of 100, that is 1 to 10 with 1 point increments, however the scores below about 8 never seem to come into play. We can roast coffee and describe the roast quite accurately with a 10 point system, why not coffee in the cup? I can certainly see the logic in coffee professionals needing an accurate and precise evaluation scoring process, enabling like minded and similarly trained professionals word wide to be able to communicate and understand exactly what the other is tasting and describing, however scoring a cup of coffee out of 100 and virtually ignoring the first 80 on the scale seems a little odd.  

derrilex

Welcome to crazy town  :rofl: :stir

Moon

^^^ Who forgot to switch on the forum filter for Mad Cow?  >:D In other coffee news.. Bought a small plunger today seeing I couldn't find either of the two I have packed away somewhere. Brett and C-man will be happy that I'll be giving this style of coffee making a try. I finally get to use my Spong No 4 hand grinder that I paid $150 for. I think they rated their plunger coffee about a 9/10 Have to take a punt on the grind setting for starters and see how it goes. Exciting times.  :thumb: * Went to see 'Interstellar' - great movie.  :thumb:

Moon

Ok .. I gave the plunger a go .. and used the Major Tom bean blend that I'm currently using for my lattes. I adjusted the Spong hand grinder to a coarser grind and used 2 scoops of beans - then ground them and filled up the 2 cup plunger with boiling water that I left to go off the boil for 2 minutes. Result - I didn't like it at all Rating - 7.7/10 .. where 7.5 is a sinker. Question:  :question: On a scale of 0-10 .. where I use say 9 for an espresso shot for my lattes .. what range of grind should I be trying for the plunger?

Brett H

I don't know know... Moony scale 1.0 was simple, a don of the cap to the newbie blog owner.  10 is perfection and everything below a qualitative guestimate all in good fun.  Seriously, we are rating flat whites.  I rate soft serve ice creams the same way now... with the kids... who are like almost in high school... You know so you are...!!  It's seriously kind of like when I get paid to adjudicate music competitions only, I get paid a fortune for those :P  :stir Also, for those I require intense audtioning, a truck load of professional experience and an appropriate  rubric! This is fun.  Plunger is out of 10 also Moony.  I love plunger...try harder! 

Kevohere

Most people would "sink" their first espresso on a new machine. No difference Moon, do as you dialed in your PV, perseverance, a tweak here and there and you'll be hitting 9s before you know it. Just another journey mate.  ;D

Dry_bean.

OK, I'm a little slow on the uptake, the penny started to drop after the post by Derrilex, think I get the picture now, here was I thinking someone was trying to reinvent the wheel. :-[ Sooo, I'm doing penance at the moment, the over cooked roast I referred in another thread! it really is pretty bad, however, as a punishment to myself I've vowed to consume every last bean, all 600 plus grams of the stuff :pan will not roast again until I'm down to the dregs of it, to this point have used about 25%. To keep the thread on track, how would I rate this stuff on the Crema atomic scale, reckon it would scrape in at about 5.25/10 yep it's that bad, that'll teach me to pay attention to the job at hand. :doh:

Koffee_Kosmo

How about we give this "Milk Coffee " rating system a name What about [size=12pt]" The Moon Scale " [/size]

Kevohere

on 1417479740:

To keep the thread on track, how would I rate this stuff on the Crema atomic scale, reckon it would scrape in at about 5.25/10 yep it's that bad, that'll teach me to pay attention to the job at hand. :doh:

Wow, that's being a bit harsh on yourself mate, drinking 5.25s till it's gone.  >:D Just grind it all up and throw in your compost and/or around the garden to ward off the bugs. Get back on the roast cycle asap and keep your mojo and some decent cups going.

Dry_bean.

on 1417493525:

Wow, that's being a bit harsh on yourself mate, drinking 5.25s till it's gone.  >:D Just grind it all up and throw in your compost and/or around the garden to ward off the bugs. Get back on the roast cycle asap and keep your mojo and some decent cups going.

No, my minds made up, I was careless and must show contrition. What I will say is I won't be sorry to see the bottom of the bag. :pan

Brett H

on 1417506327:

No, my minds made up, I was careless and must show contrition. What I will say is I won't be sorry to see the bottom of the bag. :pan

Wow, that's rough!  Here's hoping things pick up soon DB!

Dry_bean.

on 1417508980:

Wow, that's rough!  Here's hoping things pick up soon DB!

If you reckon the penance is rough you should try the coffee Brett, now that's rough! Having said that, having to eat humble pie now and again is good for the palate, make you a lot more appreciative of better than average when it comes along.

Moon

Good to see Dry bean introducing .. and making use of the sub 8 ratings with his score of 5 .. nope, a 5.25/10 to be precise .. for his latest bean roast. Crikey .. making full use of The Moon Scale' with that one [Thanks KK  :thumb:] My last attempts have rated 9.14 .. 8.9 .. 9.2 .. 9.2/10 The Pauls Farmhouse Gold full-cream milk over Spring hasn't seemed quite as creamy .. or maybe I'm just getting used to it .. and it has lost some of its appeal after upgrading from Aldi Farmland.?

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Was over at my Sisters and went for my usual morning latte over at the Shopping Centre this morning. Thought I'd try a new Cafe and asked a bloke at a Sales stand for his recommendation, which I took up. Looked at the medium sized cup and asked if they used a double shot? Nope .. 1 1/2 for a 45ml shot in a Medium - so I went the large. I thought .. hmm? I'd better ask the Barista how many ml is the pour in the large .. and was told 60ml, Seeing I go for the more concentrated 20-25ml in my double-shot lattes at home .. this seemed a bit long .. so I leant over the counter and asked if I could have a 40ml double shot instead of the 60ml.. in order to make it more potent. I didn't realise she had already completed the shot. She grabbed hold of the cup from under the PF and poured a third of it out into the tray. My heart sank when watching that .. trust me :'(  Blimey .. put that one down to bad timing. Rating - 8/10 It was nice .. but a bit on the mild side. Coulda done with another shot in it. lol.  :head: Reckon I might've let an 8.6/10 slip through my fingers there. Cost $5.50 And to add insult to injury - although she used a thermometer to heat the milk .. it was only warm. I got the distinct impression it was an assembly line Cafe and they didn't care. The bloke who recommended the place told me they aren't particularly friendly. Didn't matter so much at the time .. as It was about what was in the cup to me. Although it's pretty obvious I contributed to this ordinary outcome .. I think I might continue my search for the best place in the Shopping Center to get my coffee fix.. as I travel over there for 2-3 weeks twice yearly. Although my equipment is portable enough, it is not worth taking it. It is always good to get back home to have a decent coffee  :thumb:

Moon

Over at my Sis's again last night .. and about 11.30 at night was hanging out for a coffee .. so I thought I might as well try out a Hungry Jacks freshly ground coffee, seeing it's open 24 hrs. Well .. after 11pm it's only drive thru .. and was told that they were cleaning the coffee machine .. I guess we can call that a 'save'  :rofl: Looked like one of those fully auto Jura machines. Jura?.. forgetable brand anyway. Had to go over to the Shopping Centre for my caffeine top up before driving home .. and tried out a Cafe I hadn't bean to for ages. Large size latte had 3 shots in it. Rating - 7.8/10 Made very well by the Cafe manager .. only it hardly had any flavour .. even allowing for my taste buds still being a bit dopey. Needless to say .. my search for a decent coffee continues..

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The water coming out of my water filter was tasting like tap water .. so I opened it up .. and Yikes! .. the surface of the ceramic 10'' filter cartridge had a thick layer of brown gunk all over it. I'd say it was wet dirt .. so it was mud.  :o  Hmm .. time for a new cartridge. Anyone disagree? Didn't think so.

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Bought a couple of nice solid Piccolo cups the other day and thought I'd try 'em out Wasn't all that impressed (with the coffee .. not the cups) Rating - 7.8/10 A double shot in one of these smaller cups is overkill. I'll try a single shot next time. Same score as the one I had at the Cafe. Hers was better made .. only mine had a bit more flavour .. too strong though. I haven't bean able to make really good micro-foam for a while now .. even since before dropping the pressure down on the pstat. Noticed they used Pauls milk in the Cafe .. and no problem there .. although they obviously use different sources for their different milk labels. Good coffee drinking weather in Melbourne.  :coffee2:

Brett H

I had a Toby's Estate on the Sunshine Coast yesterday and line yours it seemed well made (I watched) but the flavour was very lack-lustre.  7.9/10. I had a MyCuppa Amazon on the Pavoni Lever today...,WOW...  9.35/10.  Wife confirmed mid-9s.  Milk wasnt perfect but pretty darn good!

mycuppa

Moony 'ol chap. Piccolo's are generally a split shot. I don't know what spouts come with your machine, but if you have a double spout, try the shot by sliding you cup under just one of the spouts. It's very hard to make a piccolo from a double shot because it's too intense and full of tannins if you try a really short ristretto. I guess it might be possible to try a single, but I never seem to get the balance right with a single - however, that's probably just me and my hopeless technique using the single (which I absolutely detest).

mycuppa

on 1417843495:

I had a Toby's Estate on the Sunshine Coast yesterday and line yours it seemed well made (I watched) but the flavour was very lack-lustre.  7.9/10. I had a MyCuppa Amazon on the Pavoni Lever today...,WOW...  9.35/10.  Wife confirmed mid-9s.  Milk wasnt perfect but pretty darn good!

You are being too kind Brett.

Moon

on 1417843703:

Moony 'ol chap. Piccolo's are generally a split shot. I don't know what spouts come with your machine, but if you have a double spout

I did have the double spout .. only I wanted to be trendy .. like the rest of youz guys .. and chopped it off .. thinking going 'naked' was how to be cool  8) I should have known .. but was in my usual routine .. then decided to use the new smaller cup without changing the dose to compensate. The coffee did taste like the tannins were dominant. One thing I can say .. I didn't feel like another coffee for a while after that.  :coffee: The general feeling from around the traps is that no-one seems to use the single basket. I've been doing the polish only tamp for a while now (maybe that's why they aren't turning out as good? .. spent puck seems ok) .. only I figure a single basket may need a firmer tamp due to the basket being shallow. I'll give it a whirl and see what works.

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Brett and his wife re still carving it up by the looks. Read the 20 questions interview .. and you're into the Opera gear eh? I'm a bit of a n00b when it comes to that style but am a huge fan of Josh Groban from the USA .. for any of you who don't know who Josh is .. he sang the lead vocal at the end of the movie 'Troy' with Eric Bana & Brad Pitt. Love that music .. and the babe doing the Arabic/Turkish vocal. Like Josh's work with Herby Hancock too.. Josh can funk it too .. which is good. Yeah Baby!  :thumb:

Moon

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MOONY IS BACK!! :thumb:

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MAJOR TOM - by Ground Control Roast date - Nov 24th (2 weeks) 2 single baskets come with the PV Lusso .. a smaller one and a 10g. Of course I'm going the larger 10g The cup is larger than a piccolo .. my usual cup is 200ml .. and this smaller one is 160ml. I think piccolos are 120ml? I filled the basket and weighed it .. the grinds weighed 9.9g with a full dose .. so we'll call it a 10g basket. Did the polish only .. so no pressure on the tamp Dose - 9.9g single basket Tamp - Polish only Microfoam - good but not perfect Double fellini at the start .. no extra double fellini when the pour becomes continuous - as done previously. Pour - 30secs for 20ml - back to 20ml Rating - 9.3/10 Yep .. you heard it right folks! Moony has his mojo back .. which is good.  :coffee2: Bonus: By using the smaller basket instead of the double - I'm saving 7g per cup. That's a whopping 70% saving!  :rofl: and I don't run out of beans as quickly .. unless ---> ---> Wow .. that means I can drink more coffees before I get caffeined out  :coffee:

Moon

Another 9.3/10  :thumb: Seems like the 10g single basket and smaller 160ml cup gets the right balance for me .. with a 20ml shot rather than the 25ml. It also simplifies the extraction process .. by not needing further felines to get the longer shot volume. The downside - is that I like to take my coffee out into the backyard Gazebo to have with a ciggy.  8) <-- yep So far .. if I take a sip while I'm still in the kitchen .. it's all done by the time I make my move. Nice .. while it lasted. Might have to think about making a 2nd cup to take outside 

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Ok .. so I need a new water filter cartridge .. and have been reading up on them. I have a single countertop and got the good quality Doulton ceramic 10'' that cost $67 + del I now know that I need to take it out and give the outside a scrub when the water volume reduces .. due to build up of dirt. Ideally, you need a 2 filter system with an optional 3rd 1. To catch the dirt and sediment 2. A carbon type to take out the minerals and micro bugs 3. A 'mixed bed resin' type if you want to remove the fluoride A reverse osmosis system will do 2 and 3.. not sure about the dirt? From what I've seen of these .. they waste way too much water .. unless I can capture it and use it in the garden. Still seams a waste and another inconvenience. I could stick with the ceramic Doulton .. and give it a regular clean to remove the mud. They recommend that you change the cartridge every 6 months .. or 12 months at a stretch. I've had mine for about 12 months .. whereby the flow had reduced significantly for some time .. without realizing why. There's not much difference in the cost of a new Doulton cartridge .. and getting a new 3 cartridge system that goes under the sink. The tap is fixed on top of the sink. I figure that if I am going to have a more elaborate permanent setup .. I'd prefer to invest in a good quality solid one .. rather than a cheapie. This one doesn't allow you to choose an alternate brand of cartridge. They are cheap enough to replace though.. so you don't get hit each time they need replacing - around AU$14 each (avail locally) Does the 3 cartridge system do better than a much higher quality single one .. like the Dolton ceramic  :question:

Brett H

on 1417843757:

You are being too kind Brett.

You know... I don't think so I've always said great coffee is possible at home with great fresh brown beans, a desire to learn good techniques and, oh yeah, 7 grand worth of gear  :rofl:

Moon

By the way Barista Brett .. how are those God Shots going? Any 9.8/10s lately lol? I'll accept 9.5 :rofl: Any standouts in the batch from our mutual mate .. mycuppa  :question: Keep us updated .. yer hear :thumb:

Dry_bean.

The midnight special has finally ceased to exist, had the last brew from it yesterday PM, and my latest effort (approx 200g MM Malabar, 450g Yirg and 100g of Robusta) is at last in play. Had a Lungo made with the new roast this morning, bliss, compared to the previous roast reckon it made about 11.5 on the Moon scale. :thumb:

Brett H

Thanks DB, I laughed and spat my Apple Pie all over my iPad... Mooney, I made a Mug of Cino for the drive to SeaWorld today with the kids.  It was MyCuppa's Santosa and it rated 9.6/10.  My wife confirmed my score... Why so low you ask for such a stellar bean?  Plastic travel mug really.  It has all the aesthetic appeal of an electric toothbrush!  Sure it does the job but nobody thinks you look good using it and at some point your going to spill stuff down your chin you wish you hadn't! I've returned home with a local offering from Supreme Roasters and scored a creditable 8.4 and 8.6 from the first shots.  Better than a recent offering from Campos which I enjoyed and lots of time left to play with temperatures and shot profiles so stay tuned!

Moon

Blimey Brett & wife .. only a 9.6/10 ----> doing it tough.  :-| And here I am slumming it .. struggling to get a 9.2 .. and if I hit the jackpot .. a 9.3/10 Suppose when you've invested - what was it .. 7 grand in your gear .. I'd be expecting some bragging rights too  :angel: As for mere mortal .. Moony .. with a humble outlay of $1,640 on machine & grinder .. I reckon popping out 9.1 .. 9.2 is pretty clutch.. especially seeing I haven't found a Cafe for a while that rates anywhere near it. Maybe I'm hanging around the wrong places? Anything above that is adding chocolate on my latte .. and I can live without that ..... cause that's why I drink lattes - otherwise I'd be making cappuccinos... yeah?  :coffee2: Chocolate is for the girls to scrape off the top with their teaspoon. Blokes who do that .. shame on you  :o Having said that .. I must confess .. I love my choccy ice-cream  :-[ Keep 'em coming Brett .. oh, and Db .. ratings Man .. ratings - the heads-up .. keep 'em under 10 .. the further under the better  Moony looks & feels..  ??? Pssst ... Brett's killing me with his 9.6 and 9.8s  :rofl:

Dry_bean.

on 1418129624:

oh, and Db .. ratings Man .. ratings - the heads-up .. keep 'em under 10 .. the further under the better  Moony looks & feels..  ??? Pssst  :rofl:

Morning Moon, I reckon after drinking the swill I've been drinking during the past week or so I'm entitled to show a little exuberance ;D as a matter of fact I'm so appreciative  of my latest roast that I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a score of over 12 pop up, guess you could say I'm over the Moon. :stir PS: Just noticed, this little missive has seen me hit the 1000 post mark, took me long enough.

Brett H

on 1418165099:

Morning Moon, I reckon after drinking the swill I've been drinking during the past week or so I'm entitled to show a little exuberance ;D as a matter of fact I'm so appreciative  of my latest roast that I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a score of over 12 pop up, guess you could say I'm over the Moon. :stir PS: Just noticed, this little missive has seen me hit the 1000 post mark, took me long enough.

And a fine missive it is bursting at the seams with puns, prods and props! Mooney, if I can't get a 9.2 with a plunger I'd be blaming my brown beans... but don't forget, the plunger tastes different to the latte! P.s Moony I don't  remember spending  7 grand but that's the RRP of my dream-kit and my ball-park tongue in cheek take on what a coffee costs.... just to upset the instant drinkers and nonbelievers.