Your cafe set up- Machines\Grinders

dcbc · January 2004

what do you use and how is it going?
I use La marzocco and a Mazzer grinder, Very good grinder and the machine also very good. No complaints what so ever but I have heard very good things about San Marino and BNZ grinders. Any opinons? What Machines give the best shots? Which grinders suit grinding to order. I am thinking of a two group Linea La marzocco for milk and shots, three group ECM/ San marino for shots and a BNZ grinder
Any opinions?

FreshCoffee2 · January 2004

Hi DCBC, there is a lot of equipment out there. Just because some of it is very common indeed doesn't mean it's any good (it just means the importer contracted to sell at a very good price to a coffee company that guaranteed to buy many many machines and place them in the market), and equally just because some equipment is marketed as being very "exclusive" indeed and might have flashing bells and whistles or 49 boilers and the latest smicko looking body and is expensive to buy doesn't mean it's any good either. Some operators are happy with mediocre equipment, others are not. Some operators dont know the difference. Some operators know what they're doing, some do not. There are too many variables, and the danger is we will therefore be relying on unqualified subjective opinions for the anwer to the question. In any case a machine that can produce an excellent espresso has therefore produced an excellent base for your milk coffee. Ergo a machine that produces a good shot can produce a good milk coffee... A good operator can manage a machine that has little steam, a bad operator cannot so...? I have my own opinions, they can equally be termed "subjective" but perhaps they are well qualified from years of providing service backup to a number of brands. You all know I favour machines based on the E61 principle and for a good one, take a look at my Company website www.cosmorexcoffee.com.au and click on the Equipment icon. We have tested expensive cafe coffee grinders alongside cheap cafe coffee grinders. As long as grinding plates are not worn, most do an "equivalent" job (grind wise) and a blindfolded, experienced, industry representative would not be able to pick one from the other. The difference lies in the quality of the fittings such as the doser unit. Some are made from well machined metal parts, others are made of plastic. Generally most plastic parts dont last as long as metal parts. Some grinders are noisier than others, some are less likely to restart quickly when overheated and cut out under high volume conditions (usually due to under rating of the capacitor) etc etc but I will repeat, most cafe grinders will do an equivalent job on the quality of the grind irrespective of the standard of build and as long as they are not overloaded due to conditions of extreme use, they're all the same to me. I therefore feel the question as it has been presented, is unable to be answered objectively by most operators. Apologies but I have to call a spade a spade, FC.

dcbc · January 2004

thaks for your reply fresh, Well I am not after an objective answer. I realise that a good shot maachine will produce a good milk coffee but without getting into jargon I want to maintain constant brewing tempretures over a ten kilo day. hence I would like a machine for each step of the latte making process Or a system that facilitates excellence Any suggestions?

FreshCoffee2 · January 2004

Hi Dcbc, firstly, anyone that is doing 10 kilos a day requires 2 x 2 group machines not 1 x 3 group. This is as much for "insurance" or an "each way bet" in terms of ensuring that in the event of an unfortunate service problem during operation you are still able to "limp" along on one machine while waiting for repairs to the other, as much as "insurance" of having plenty of capacity to keep performing at peak delivery throughout the day. Secondly this kind of turnover requires a machine with good thermic group control and this is achieved with a machine that has groups with great mass, ie the E61 type. From memory each group weighs about 4.5 kilos...I'll double check that tomorrow. There are some brand / model machines that have minute groups and they are not suitable for large volume delivery as they will not retain the heat required to extract coffee properly, "cooling off" during large scale delivery. Other brand / model machines that because of their design have groups that allow a direct transfer of heat from their boiler to the group (the groups are basically directly attached to the boiler) run hot and burn coffee. Some very well known brands of espresso machines fall short of expectations so you need to beware of marketing hype. Whilst I have mentioned that under the circumstances of a 10 kilo a day requirement the business should be operating with 2 x 2

dcbc · January 2004

Excellent post fresh thank you. I was actually after 2x 3group or a 2&3 group machine; I was also toying with the idea of two grinders. Working in a place at the moment where 9-10 kilos is the norm, I would say it works well well with a 4 group and one grinder. But if it were my place I would have two machines for the reasons mentioned in your post. One for shots one for milk and pouring coming together at a central point. I like the sound of those heavy heads as opposed to the saturated heads of La Marzocco I think it gives a creamier shot.

FreshCoffee2 · January 2004

Hi Dcbc, "creamier" shots are a function of: a) fresh coffee (better oil content than stale coffee and brew therefore has better "body"), b) brewing water that is running on the "cooler" side of the correct temperature range rather than the "hotter" side of correct temperature range, and c) proper expertise by the operator with regard to all the usual variables. Anyone else on this one? FC.

espressohead · January 2004

hi guys, interesting little convos u guys have here. i disagree with your 2x2 idea. why spend the few grand on buying a second machine when one is needed??? security; well yeah good idea in a busy cafe but how much is it really needed??? surely if your are using machinary of good quality the number of times that it will break down in a year is quite low, i just dont see how i could justify spending the extra money when if you have access to a good technician the problem is going to be fixed in no time. if the problrm is serious a replacement machine can be arranged until fixed, quite honestly i would consider a 3 group machine and would make life easier but it can all be done on a 2. i have worked on a three group doin 70kg a week and thats a five day business not seven using a faema. not my choice of machine but it did the job, easily.no one in this country needs a four group machine, and if you do you need to work on your speed and effiency while on the machine. if you were to ask my opinion i would suggest a nouva simonelli, 3 group mac2000. i have never seen a machine that can hold its pressure so well during a rush. i do a farmers market and on an average day do 6 kg in five hours, on a two group. we have upgraded the element and have never had a problem. the machine is constantly moved every week end off a trailer onto a bench and back again, then drivin around town in the trailer. as you know machines are not meant to be carted around giving more risk of damaging parts, any way my point is if you are good enough and able to work with another person on a two group machine, you will not need anythin more than a two. honestly if you want somethin that will handle your business dont look past the nouva simonelli. i have heard good things of the la marzocco but have not used one so can not compare. all right i am down cheers

FreshCoffee2 · January 2004

Long reply however your post has brought up some points that need addressing. If you are using say 8 kg per day say 6 days a week that's say 48 kilos per week. That's sales of roughly 4800 coffees and at say $3.00 each that's a weekly wet coffee turnover to the cafe of $14,400.00 and that's an annual turnover of 3/4 of a MILLION dollars (AUS $748,800.00). Yes there are a lot of outgoings in a business with such a turnover however everything is relative... One 3 group machine doing that kind of turnover is switching elements, pressure stats and other controlling gear including relays in the main electronic controller on and off almost continually and this is extreme wear and tear. A cafe owner with that kind of a turnover on coffee does not need to be cheap on equipment and should not entrust his total production to one only machine and hope that a service tech is available when it breaks down. No one can guarantee against machinery breaking down and no one can guarantee that all the service techs in the area aren't doing something else at the time that needs finishing before they can get to you. Down time with that kind of turnover is murderous, placing extreme pressure on the cafe as well as the service provider. Conditions behind the counter in cafes are usually cramped, often dim, and the staff are continually asking "can I use it yet....". No service provider wants to walk into a cafe during peak time and suffer the pressure he will be placed under by irate cafe staff to either repair a breakdown or worse still, swap over one machine for another. Swapping equipment is very time consuming... no service technician carries a spare machine in the back of the van and this generally requires he return to his base to pick one up. Machines do not generally lie around waiting to be swapped over and sometimes new machines have to be uncrated and given a quick pre delivery service before being delivered to the site by which stage you will find the cafe owner or manager is climbing the walls and has probably called another service provider or supplier. This places the cafe owner and his service provider at odds when in fact they are on the same side.... Service providers are quite well aware of the above and you will find it is always preferable to effect a repair than replace a machine. In addition replacing machines always leaves the cafe owners with the (mistaken) idea there was something wrong with the equipment, not that perhaps they were overuseing the equipment...This then leads to the mistaken idea that the service provider originally supplied them with substandard equipment. The mind plays predictable games with you when you are under extreme pressure. A smart cafe owner with an 8 to 10 kilo a day business realises all the above and takes steps to ensure the well being of his "cash cow". FC.

Gonzo · January 2004

Statistics... Re: ".........i have worked on a three group doin 70kg a week and thats a five day business......." ok in real terms that means a cafe that's basically flat out 5 days a week from say 7am until midnight for each of the 5 days. 70kg in 5 days is an average 14kg a day & according to figures from the previous post thats 1400 coffees sold per day. Assuming the figures for opening hours above, thats effectively a 17 hour trading day. 17 x 60 minutes per hour is a trading day of 1020 minutes. 1020 minutes divided by 1400 coffees is roughly 1 coffee produced/sold every 45 seconds on average........................which therefore means that speed of production is actually much more than that to get the average. What does this mean? a) If all this is done with one only 3 group machine its an accident waiting to happen (equipment wise) as well as unnecessary strain placed on baristas; b) There have to be a multitude of baristas to take over from eachother at regular short intervals and c) steps must be in place to stop the development of repetitive strain injury; d) the "workstation" must be designed with the utmost care directed to the physical wellbeing of the staff ( see previous point); d) barista supervision has to be absolutely regimental in order to ensure consistent good brew. or kaboom. Using costings from previous post 70 kg a week is sales of 7000 coffees a week and at 3 dollars each thats a turnover on coffee of $21000 and an annual turnover on coffee of $1,092,000 dollars! Coffee at say 20 dollars per kg times 70 per week times 52 weeks is a raw material cost of only 72,800 dollars. Multiply this by 3 to include cost of milk and ancillaries and that's roughly 220,000 dollars and gross profit on coffee sales of roughly 875,000 dollars. They're only statistics but hey, where do I line up to get a slice of the action? G.

over_extracted · January 2004

Hi al as i work in one of sydneys busiest espresso bars i can only recomend by experience, we have 2x2 group and a 2 group machine in the shop the 2x2 work all day for 12 hours and they never stop (good all e61 heads) ;D i have 2 baristas working the machines together,now the reason that i have the other machine is not only to take the preassure of the 2 baristas on the morning turbo drive rushhhhh,but olso as a back up ,i learned the hard way one day when i had my darling 4 group san marco doing 10 kilos and buuuuummmmmmmmm all whent dead ,the tech came 1 hour later and no coffee for my reg customers what a morning..... anyway you should stick to the 2x2 group together its not only gives the machine a easier run but in the case that one of them breaks then you can still work your wonders,good luck and FC its nice that we see something eye to eye.OE ohhhhh ps, make sure that you have a spare grinder as well they are italian and have a mind of their own.... :P ;D ;D ;D

Supertechnico · January 2004

I reckon dcbc has tuned out on this by now. In my opinon which may or may not count, a larger unit ie 4 group machine has many advantages, possibly out weighing those "what if" situations such as emergency breakdowns. A large single boiler unit will have much better thermal balance than 2x2 group machines, which ultimately means more consistency. Bare in mind the large volume of water and decreases exposure of the heat exchangers to the hottest area of the boiler and also gives constant steam volume. If the machine is built properly from a reputable manufacturer it should have quality components such as pumps, elements, electrovalves, electronic cards, switches and touch pads which at the end of the day stop the machine working sending the cafe into an emergency. Again if it is a good product it should happen maybe once or twice a year. If your service provider is relyable, it should count for a miniscule loss in revenue for the year. I never really understood why you would want to have the additional cost of thousands of dollars for the 2x2's but not the additional capacity. Some 4 group units have more boiler capacity than 2x2'S. Perhaps their is double the amount of things that can go wrong as well. That is if they're both used equally. Places I have seen with 2x2's mostly hammer one and use the other at a few busy times only. I'd like to know more about group heads and why one is better than another. Super ::)

over_extracted · January 2004

Are your group heads the type that hang around coffee shops commenting about how they would do things if they were behind the machine??????. :P :P :P ;D ;D

Gonzo · January 2004

I dont think DCBC has been long lost to this discussion at all. He did infact open up a very interesting discussion on cafe and equipment management, and the subject appears to have been given a very thorough going over. Super, how long did you say you've been working in cafes doing atleast say 35 kilos in a 5 day week? Or how long did you say you've been a service provider? And is a "reliable" service provider one that turns away all other business so he can sit around waiting for you to call? And in a business that has genuinely large turnover on coffee, do you think the price difference between the cost of 2 x 2 group machines VS the cost a 4 group machine means anything in real terms? Are you "discounting" the value of good management and foresight on the part of a good business manager? All this talk of thermal balance is making me thirsty, think I'll go out and get me a beer. G.

Supertechnico · January 2004

Over, those heads you're talking about are a bit different. There's plenty of those around. Gonzo, I'll have one also! I mentioned things like cost to include those decision makers looking at an equipment budget. My comments were also to give an opposite view to what I've seen, and I believe they are relevant. Cost reduction is an integral part of good management and a few thousand dollars buys a lot of coffee beans. Although, perhaps 35k a week gets you a 4 group or 2x2's on loan from a coffee supplyer, with supplements thrown in. So that's irrelevant. In that case good equipment management may mean something else. I have been in the service side of the industry for many years, and know that the increase in demand for espresso the last 5 years and more has not meant an increase in quality service personell. A danger we see all to often is DIY repairs. This exercise can be fatal. That's not good management. There is many equipment suppliers around now with varying degrees in product quality and levels of back up parts etc. We occasionally get service work on machines not imported any more making parts impossible to find. I urge any cafe looking at purchasing a new machine to check out all of the important things on the machines performance, but just as important is the back up you'll can expect. :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X I love those things as well.

dcbc · January 2004

Gee I feel like a celebrity, 2x2 is not a fantastic idea in a cafe that averages 50kg per five day week. What happens when you are washing your handles during service? there is also a tendency to strech those big jugs, a couple of those and thats your machine for a while. There is just no substitute for that pressure when you need it. This is not from a technical point of view but from a barista's. A four group is fantastic and I have been lucky no have never had any real problems.(La Marzocco FB70) Although if you take off the lid and look deep inside the beast it is a wilderness of cables and boilers, I am left asking what if something stuffs up, it looks like an over engineered machine, there are few techs that know they're way through that, so a 24/7 tech is available, but does he know what he is doing? All I want are 2 three group machines that are work horses, stable and simple, I am not after semi automatics, manuals are fine. Oh and a grinder with a big engine that won't over heat Any ideas?

over_extracted · January 2004

Dont know what you guys are on about ::), but i do well over 50kg a week and i have no trouble with my 2x2 machines i guess it really is up to the skills of the barista to know what the machines can do.i just change the seals and shower heads every 2 months and thats it ,i olso guess that you have to know how to treat a espresso machine when its flat out... Have a look at machines that have the E61 group head ,eg ECM,FAEMA,ect and with your mazzer, they are good grinders they tend to get a little hot towards the kilo per hour at 50 kilos+ per week the blades tend to get changed every 3 months even they are blunt or not as they tend to heat up a lot when you do a kilo on the side of 30,40 min ,with the BNZ they are a great grinder but they tend to under dose nore often then the mazzer this can put the inexperienced barista into the trouble of under dosing the shots and getting inferior coffee produced.SEE YA good Luck OE

Supertechnico · January 2004

I have seen Mazzer evolve as the leading and most recommended grinder the last few years on the market. They have a conical version available called Robur. I haven't seen anything keep up with this as far as productivity and consistency. I have one about 2 years old in the city which goes through around 60kg per week. I have only had to change blades twice in that period which is not too bad for such a volume. I find them very easy to replace also. I believe Mazzer will have titanium blades soon as well. Super

over_extracted · January 2004

Wow :o thats really good you only had to change blades every 3 tones of coffee thats very good.... well as for the titanium blades i think ill wear them around my wrist iam sure they will make better jewelry or just call me old fashion.OE

Supertechnico · January 2004

Perhaps you could wear those blades in your underpants. Or that might not be a good idea. You might give yourself brain damage. :o I love where this is goind admin. Don't you?

over_extracted · January 2004

NOW NOW keep your head on ;D dont go out of the technical staff. ;D see ya OE

Supertechnico · January 2004

Apologies overexacted. Stupid comments have no place in such a forum. So technically, if you put a set of grinder blades in your underwear, how much brain damage would they cause you? ;D ;D :D :D 8) 8)

Unknown · January 2004

Ive heard of nails twigs and stones passing through grinder blades but never nuts... OUCH oops sorry....

over_extracted · January 2004

OOHHHH supertechnico ...

john · January 2004

. 8) The next time I am served a ristretto with nutty underwear, whoops sorry I meant nutty undertones I will enquire further as to its origins. Any mention of a hot and humid climate and I am out of there. ;D John PS I think we are over the original post

FreshCoffee2 · January 2004

Good point John so lets get back on topic then... Great plug for Mazzer from Supertechnico, so lets have a closer look. This is not intended to offend so please lets not go there, however if someone makes a statement then it is there for discussion. So: "....Leading and most recommended grinder...". We hear statements like these all the time. There is no basis for this kind of outrageous statement. It conjures up in the mind of the unknowing, that this is a really "good" brand. It so happens the importer for Mazzer is the largest (or one of the largest) distributors of espresso brewing equipment in the country. He contracts to some of the largest coffee companies in this country, ergo "leading" could simply mean that it is a brand that has become very common in the market due to placement by some very large coffee companies with large market share... Yes this brand manufactures ( or badge engineers, it doesnt matter) good grinders, but there are many other good grinders that also do what they are intended / designed to do. End of story. They are just grinders, they do a job, they are work horses. Conical burrs...yeah so? If Mazzer will soon have titanium blades, or gold or platinum or made from peanut butter or swiss cheese, then so will other competing brands... The things I think we need to take a note of is that most if not all auto doser grinders irrespective of their ***brand***, or how common they are in the marketplace, do the job they are designed to do, whether thay have flat plates or conicals, and whether they have larger or smaller capacity for larger or smaller cafes. You will find the actual "quality" of grind (when compared between the commonly used coffee grinders in this country) could not be compared one from the other in terms of the coffee that will be produced from their grinds... The fact is if you have a large capacity cafe, you will be **loaned** a large capacity grinder and vice-versa....you are not asking for a grinder that meets some kind of grind quality specification...but you might perhaps ask that it not be one of the more noisy types! Realistically, most do not actually know anything technical about grinders and are simply relying on the supplier to provide one....any one. In addition, any reputable coffee supplier is very quickly going to sort out if his chosen brand / model of grinder is not reliable, and will make changes accordingly and very quickly... The differences lie in terms of the fittings (and I think this has already been said) so better "quality" grinders will have better quality dispensers that will not need service as often as a "lesser quality" unit. Yes in a large capacity cafe it is therefore important (for the reason just given) to have a grinder with a ***better standard of build*** and therefore its ultimate reliability in service, but in a regular cafe (say for argument sake 10kg per week and less) any of the miriad grinders available will suffice and will give years of good faithful service IF LOOKED AFTER PROPERLY BY THE CAFE CONCERNED. Unfortunately, most coffee grinders placed in cafe's are the "forgotten" piece of equipment. Never cleaned, never washed, never touched, never emptied, never adjusted. They usually have a build up of encrusted oily rubbery old coffee grinds inside and out, that stink of rancid, stale coffee oil. A clean, well looked after and well adjusted coffee grinder is a happy and most probably more reliable coffee grinder irrespective of its brand. As to "....most recommended....". Realistically, no one "recommends" a grinder. In most instances the grinder is placed on loan with the cafe by the coffee company. You get what that coffee company supplies. The coffee company will place ( if they have any sense) a grinder that will do the job, reliably, for the capacity of the cafe. End of story. I dont really believe it is up to the cafe client to "demand" a grinder of a particular type or brand, especially when the cafe is most unlikely to know anything about grinders in the first instance, and secondly whatever they get amounts to a freebie. What they might care to do however, is take better care of equipment that has been loaned to them free of charge and for them to derive income from. You dont work for one of the Mazzer agents do you? Cheers, FC.

21_Grams · January 2004

Yes, what he said...keep it clean. On the topic of best grinders - yes Mazzer is the best flat blade grinder - particularly the Major. Always buy the Major. The blades are larger than most and rotate at a slower speed while grinding at the same pace. This is better for your coffee, as there is less heat affecting the coffee. As well, the components are built for speed - the doser has a quick return on the lever and is easy to clean and repair. Yup, mazzer Major and LaMarzocco 3group are the ingredients to good coffee.

over_extracted · January 2004

And dont forget a good barista as well ;D ;D OE.

Gonzo · January 2004

OE, thanks for an intelligent observation. Otherwise, enough of this pseudo intellectual name dropping coffee equipment snobbery rubbish. The great majority of the cafe market and the thousands upon thousands of staff employed in that industry dont have enough business (has anyone in here heard of an average or small sized cafe?) to be wanting to know the brand name of the latest "in moda" 3 group machine, and certainly dont need to know about high delivery grinders. And the advice given in the penultimate post is the kind of thing that UNinformed (in the field of coffee or cafe equipment) internet surfers will take as gospel truth. Why...? Because they read it on the net...and then they go and place demands on their suppliers, for such equipment, when in the great majority of cases they dont need it. And this is in a market where many suppliers lend stuff out left right and centre...so you set up a scenario where clients, who are not willing to pay for their own equipment anyway, and are basically on the bludge, will demand equipment with a certain "social" standing and will pick and choose suppliers according to the "perceived" standard of the equipment to be bludged. Kind of like demanding the loan of a prime mover to drive the kids to school with when the family sedan will do...and do the job extremely well in any case. The market is troubled enough without pushing the "coffee equipment snobbery" bandwagon. High speed / high delivery / high capacity equipment, with very Italian sounding names (for the coffee "fashion" conscious "in" crowd), does not make for a good cup of coffee. This kind of name dropping within self-interest groups on the internet builds unknown or regular brand names into the "latest" thing...without basis. The readers in this forum should stop and think about how they are being manipulated....so that they may eventually ask for one brand name over another... This is not real interest in all things coffee, it's marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing........by interested parties who seem to have the most to gain. G.

john · January 2004

Gonz Well said John

21_Grams · January 2004

Marketting? When people ask, "what machinery is best to use for excellent espresso?", I answer Lamarzocco Espresso Machines and Mazzer Major grinders. I have nothing to do with either of these companies- at all! Actually, I am not very fond of the main importer of Mazzers, but the product is the best. Those of you who are arrogant and self-righteous can point fingers and say that everyone is trying to plug their own product, but then you do not offer any answers to the question at hand! What do you believe is the best combination? All this talk about driving your kids to school in a sedan- have a backbone and offer up some real answers, or are you afraid somebody will accuse you of "plugging product". The person asking the question to begin this forum is opening a cafe and probably wouldn't mind some brand names. All this babble about marketting....If you disagree with my recommendation about the Mazzer Lamarzocco, then lets hear why you disagree, and maybe you can offer a better combination? Lets get somewhere with these forums and stop all the going in circles accusing so-and-so of being in kahoots with this company or that. I've seen this happen a few times on this site, and it is getting quite tiresome.

Unknown · January 2004

Right On 21 Grams! I, too have read MOST of the forums on this web site, over the course of many months and also find the silly side-tracking and going round in circles tiresome. Time is precious people! Lets better utilise it and stick with the topics. In my opinion the LaMarzocco and Mazzer grinder are the best - they do a fantastic job. Using these in any business, no matter what the size or weekly usage of coffee, will contribute significantly to better quality espresso. (John, please note: I am in NO way affiliated with either of these companies).

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