Breville's new dual boiler machine BES900

beanflying · October 2011

on 1317590128:

I think this post sums up the culture & mentality of this forum in general. Pretty disappointing when an innovative Aussie company takes on presenting its home grown products to the likes of Intelligentsia, Stumptown, Counter Culture, Third Rail, Joes, Dallis Bros in their own front yard & gets lampooned for it. For the record all the above were blown away by Breville's approach, technology and the 900's performance. Cheers, Phil

Phil, As a moderator of this forum an a fairly long term member elsewhere. This forum has a fairly liberal policy toward being open and allowing reasonable comment on product/companies be they positive or negative. We also have a generally fairly strong policy on not being bullied or coerced by companies into censorship. Your input as always has/is been welcomed and you are welcome to put your companies views politely and respectfully of other members here always. My personal view is unlike elsewhere all views are welcome and dissenting from that view is fine but don't make it personal. I suggest if you have a problem with a post or the forum policies then you take it up with either the Moderators or Admin in private would be far more appropriate. cheers Tim

coffeehorse · October 2011

I've got to say that I know most of the parties involved in this discussion at least a little, be it in person or through the usual social media and forum channels. I think Phil is likely to be on the defensive. Breville have got it in the neck on a number of fronts from a few parties (I'm not saying it is or isn't justified) and it might be respectful of everyone to try to post in a way that has a bit less mockery & is a bit gentler in nature. I've done a fair bit of barista judging with Phil and anyone who's met him even for 10 minutes knows that he's a solid and honest, hard working bloke who in his new line of work with Breville is doing the best he can to deliver a perfect product to every end user. OPV issues as stated are present in pretty much every machine brand sold worldwide, and (as AM knows ;D,) the tools needed to adjust these things (when adjustable) are kinda expensive - if a home user has a Scace 2 device then they probably have the kind of budget where their one group Slayer is sitting next to a pair of Robur-E's. These are usually looked at as part of routine service by decent technicians, and a drop-in, pick-up service is equal to most retailers. I guess what I'm really saying is this. AM's posts are accurate in terms of the ideal of contract law and servicing, in many ways, but perhaps don't reflect that a quality service can be had without some of the workflow (and time/paperwork) associated with it, especially if there are trustworthy people involved. The BES900 is hugely complex, and from the threads around people are moaning less on a per-unit basis than say, GS3 owners. The two aren't perhaps directly comparable, and problems are problems, but all this meta-talk is really getting me down. AM, if Phil is in front of a blackboard, I trust it's for a legit reason, and he's entitled to feel a little aggrieved after posting a fairly awesome picture to help basic understanding here. Obviously AM, we both agree that some people won't notice less than perfect settings/setups and thus a failure rate may be higher than perceived, but equally, one loud voice on a forum can echo a long distance. I've still not tried the BES900, and don't really have an opinion on the machine (I might ask Phil or a supplier to let me have a play on one), but I hope that everyone can get on just that little bit better. You're all awesome folks, so remember to act awesomely. best, CH.

Cuppacoffee · October 2011

on 1318122904:

But never a response to the OPV performance.....

Judging by the attached pic, I'd say the OPV performs very well....even an armchair expert like me was able to make the adjustment. Does the coffee taste better? Well it must if it's extracting at 9 bar, as this seems to be the popular belief, particularly on this forum. Oh, if only all those eggspurts who claim pressure profiling is the bees knees had the wisdom of this forum to call upon...

Brett H · October 2011

on 1318237115:

Judging by the attached pic, I'd say the OPV performs very well....even an armchair expert like me was able to make the adjustment. Does the coffee taste better? Well it must if it's extracting at 9 bar, as this seems to be the popular belief, particularly on this forum. Oh, if only all those eggspurts who claim pressure profiling is the bees knees had the wisdom of this forum to call upon...

I'm so glad that you can adjust this easily. The eggspurts claiming that 9 Bar is the optimum delivery of water pressure are Breville among others. Just read their lovely avert above... I did and so did many of the people to whom this machine was pitched. Perhaps you'd share with us your method of adjustment....

Muscles · October 2011

Hi Den, if 9bar is not the optimal setting and your cups already tasted good can I ask why you bothered to get out the star tools and adjust your OPV? Did curiosity finally get the better of you? Any pics? Trying to read through your sarcasm(?) I am wondering if we are to believe that you found no difference in cup at all post OPV adjustment? And what of the extra noise that the machine produces with an OPV functioning at its intended setting or did you not notice that either? I know you are busy setting up the new store but if you can drag yourself away from the forums for 10 minutes it'd be great if you could do two videos. 1 with your OPV set at 10.5bar and 1 with your OPV set at 9bar so we can see exactly how little difference there is in the pour?? Big ask I know but I also know you are always eager to help. PS. I must say I am glad you are now contributing on here and that we are all getting along...

beanflying · October 2011

Now kids please please play nicely

On topic and on the machine is fine!

Cuppacoffee · October 2011

To begin with, my relationship with Breville isn't as incestuous as some of you may think. Perhaps what may surprise some people more, is that I have and utilise independent thought. This makes it easy for me to disagree, without feeling my intelligence is being threatened. I do disagree with the commonly held position that a maximum of 9 bar during the extraction is the optimum maximum pressure for an espresso extraction. If any of you have had the opportunity to read and understand pp. 283 and 284, "Espresso Coffee, The Science of Quality", edited by Illy and Viani, you will see that I share my beliefs in good company. Further, anyone who is familiar with the hydrodynamic experiments of Baldini and Petracco published in 1993 is like to agree with me, as is anyone who uses a lever espresso machine to its full potential and understands the cause and effect of manipulating its operation. In regard to how to access and change opv settings, I'm not prepared to disclose this in a public forum where I cannot control the use of any information given. Although it is a simple procedure that anyone with the most basic understanding of espresso machines can perform, I don't have any desire to hear that a DB900 user electrocuted themselves. Besides, I thought you thought my thoughts weren't worth thinking about! Marc, no sarcasm intended, though maybe a little mischief. I made the adjustment on impulse this evening, only pulled one shot and took a sip. I don't think there is a discernible difference in sound though do have some industrial deafness. I'll listen out a bit more carefully tomorrow. I did notice that the puck was drier than usual as I knocked it out but don't know if that was an isolated incident. Re the videos, I'm a bit of a luddite in that area - you would need to help and if we are going to do it properly, I think it will take more than 10 minutes; not opposed to doing this when the shop is up and running.

Muscles · October 2011

on 1318243319:

Marc, no sarcasm intended, though maybe a little mischief. I made the adjustment on impulse this evening, only pulled one shot and took a sip. I don't think there is a discernible difference in sound though do have some industrial deafness. I'll listen out a bit more carefully tomorrow. I did notice that the puck was drier than usual as I knocked it out but don't know if that was an isolated incident. Re the videos, I'm a bit of a luddite in that area - you would need to help and if we are going to do it properly, I think it will take more than 10 minutes; not opposed to doing this when the shop is up and running.

Cool, let me know when (no rush, we both have other priorities at present) and I'll pop in for a coffee and chat and could even bring my BDB in and Camera so we could do side by side comparisons...

Koffee_Kosmo · October 2011

OPV is important but also " Its operation is misunderstood by the layperson " An OPV is simply a valve set to activate at a set pressure The same principle applies to fluid or gas with static and electro mechanical methods used In reality if one wants 9 bar at the puck, the OPV needs to be set higher The OPV setting is misunderstood, as this does not mean that set pressure is available at the puck First and foremost - It is an over pressure safety mechanism for the equipment Secondly its a measured control process for the water delivery from the pump to the head In coffee machines Grind and tamp play the most significant role coupled with a constant (non fluctuating) pump pressure The ideal is to get a good slow flow that extracts the oils from the puck at a rate & time that pleases ones taste buds As a simple example on how an OPV works 1] Lets grind course and tamp light You get a gusher - in this case the OPV does not even come into play 2] Grind very fine and tamp hard - You experience choking - in this case the OPV will activate to protect the machine and release any pressure over the setting Somewhere in the middle is the ideal and only the person making the coffee can control the outcome Adjusting grind & tamp to that particular roasted bean batch with daily variables of age, humidity, oil release ect I am not going to get into the dangerous topic of taste Everyone is different in there likes Its what works for you KK

UNM · October 2011

on 1318243319:

Marc, no sarcasm intended, though maybe a little mischief.

Well, I'm not averse to some mischief myself now and again, as long as sense of humour and respect for others is maintained. Would like to learn more about exactly how important temp and pressure are, not just as set values, but during the shot and afterwards. Opinions seem to vary somewhat between experts (armchair and otherwise).

Brett H · October 2011

Surely the pressure profile in a lever is more flexible than the mechanized version in a domestic vibe pump machine; ergo, I'm afraid that I am one of the dissenters in relation to a higher OPV setting in a small domestic machine like the BDB. KK, I dont share your intimate knowledge of how the OPV works but I tend (Splendor was benched and adjusted) to agree with the seemingly general consensus that 9bar is the lesser of the two evils; HOWEVER: I wouldn't be as befuddled if Breville's very own marketing material hadn't so obviously drawn attention to the issue. Why state one thing in the literature and not follow through with the product? Who forgot to talk to whom? Why the delay in sales into America? What brand of OPV was used in the machine? Silvia was perfect... not... loved her long time.... still like the BDB very much... want friends to buy one so I can play more.... think the lunch room at work needs one... just have to be sure there are no real bugs otherwise eggspurt all over my face! ;D

DoubleRistretto · October 2011

jeez AM, you could write a book!!!

beanflying · October 2011

Might consider reposting that one into it's own OPV thread yet AM? Lever machine shots are just so much different to domestic or non pressure profiled shots so best to kick off a new topic on pressure or temp profiles rather than get into differences here. With an OPV the theory is that you will get a constant pressure across the shot time. If this is getting you 11bar shots due to someone trying to achieve the "25-30 second" shot time you will be getting this by grinding finer and updosing to acheive the time leading to over extracted coffee as you will extract to many coffee solids into the cup. Generally this is less desirable on the palette and that is really the only bit that matters does it taste good. So to these ends 9bar has evolved as the "normal" pressure for extraction of espresso. The golden rules for interest refered to above are Italian in origin and if you want to read the Italian propaganda it is here http://www.espressoitaliano.org/doc/EIC%20-%20Eng%20-%20LQ.pdf

DoubleRistretto · October 2011

on 1318286612:

jeez AM, you could write a book!!!

just not clear what the topic would be... dR ;D

Cuppacoffee · October 2011

Just a quick update: Pour - yes, it is easier to control speed/viscosity and early blonding Sound - I can't hear any difference Taste - I think I prefer it at 9 bar by a gnat's whisker

UNM · October 2011

So what, if anything, had to change in your preparation in order to get the better shot? Edit: to clarify, what had to change in preparation once machine set to 9 bar in order to get shot(s) described above.

Cuppacoffee · October 2011

on 1318316836:

So what, if anything, had to change in your preparation in order to get the better shot? Edit: to clarify, what had to change in preparation once machine set to 9 bar in order to get shot(s) described above.

I'm using an M4D grinder at home. Used the same grind setting but added an extra 1 second's worth of coffee - perhaps 1.5grams more. Counter intuitive I know, though I believe the preinfusion cycle may have something to do with this. Anyone got a glass portafilter?

shape_shifter · October 2011

Here is the first shot I've done with the Synesso basket. 22 grams, no idea really what it was, Ghimbi, Harrar, Rononi, a mix of two, I know one was the Ghimbi but I can't remember what I put at the front of the cupboard, really have to start labelling all of my tubes

Oh it was also done by pressing the two cup button. I don't think it's too bad from not refining anything yet.

Muscles · October 2011

Congrats Nic, welcome to the club! Can't wait to see some more posting in here from owners and I know you will have heaps to post about.... looking forward to it

Brett H · October 2011

Congrats SS! Does this mean you effectively have a two group machine in your kitchen?

shape_shifter · October 2011

Thanks Muscles, yes I'm sure I will have a lot to post as well :D A lot to learn from what you've found so far as well. Brett, no I took the EM6910 back this morning, although if you count the Presso then yes LOL

Brett H · October 2011

6910 gone??? Did I miss a thread? Under what context did they allow a return and exchange/refund?

shape_shifter · October 2011

No you didn't miss a thread Brett, I didn't say anything about it really. We think that it had a faulty part in it as AM had picked up a discrepancy very early on. It also started pitting on the outside, I wipe it down after every time so I don't know how I could have caused it, surely something like that wouldn't happen in a month or so of ownership. I'd ordered a replacement but after over 2 deliveries from Sunbeam later and I still didn't have a machine and they were in stock, I got fed up and got a refund. Soooooooooooo while we were in Sydney on Saturday we went an bought the BES900!!! :D

shape_shifter · October 2011

Ohhhh I have to say the steaming is lovely, I only steam for single coffees at present so only use a 300ml jug and the milk goes all silky and creamy. Our verdict so far, even before the OPV gets changed is that the BES900 shits all over the EM6910...if you read my blog you'd read about the 'imaginary fate monster' ;D

Muscles · October 2011

Just a small update... really loving the BDB on my bench. Paired with the SJe, 18g VST and Espro Curved Tamper I do have a winner. It goes great with the SMart Grinder for the wifes decaf too. Last week I had 8 people wanting coffees and I managed to pour them all with milk back to back. The only limiting factor that I could possibly find was..... you guessed it....ME! The only thing I'm missing is the Naked PF which I think are due in November.... Any news on these Phil? Also, say for example one wanted to replace the bakelight handle on their PF how would one go about removing said bakelight handle?? Would one have to first remove the aluminium end cap to reveal a nut of sorts?

Brett H · October 2011

on 1319450900:

Just a small update... really loving the BDB on my bench. Paired with the SJe, 18g VST and Espro Curved Tamper I do have a winner. It goes great with the SMart Grinder for the wifes decaf too. Last week I had 8 people wanting coffees and I managed to pour them all with milk back to back. The only limiting factor that I could possibly find was..... you guessed it....ME! The only thing I'm missing is the Naked PF which I think are due in November.... Any news on these Phil? Also, say for example one wanted to replace the bakelight handle on their PF how would one go about removing said bakelight handle?? Would one have to first remove the aluminium end cap to reveal a nut of sorts?

Great news Marc! Does the machine seem to pull consistent looking shots across a number of extractions in a short time frame? I'm interested in whether Breville have achieved their goal of thermal stability even if the machine is getting a hammering. The design should put it light years ahead of the thermoblocks. This machine is sounding more and more like a winner!

Muscles · October 2011

Yeah it does seem very consistent Brett. I must say after either the 5th or 6th shot it paused for a second and brought the temp back up by 1 degree before it let me go on but it was only for literally 2 seconds while I was pouring milk so no biggie at all...

Brett H · October 2011

That is a seriously cool feature that the machine doesn't let you pull thermo-unstable shots but rather waits briefly to be at optimum operating temperature. There is nothing that compares to this thing in this price range and when you think that people are now getting them for around the $1k Sunbeam may never catch up and it possibly wouldn't be worth their while to do so. I wonder when it's being released to the Americans? May be time to re-look at those BRG shares... up almost 5% today.

Brett H · October 2011

on 1319546542:

AND Brett, I still think we could have fun if we got our hands on one.... Would love to tweak Dan's unit and see what we could get out of it, when using some quality home roasts :coffee:

Bring on December... I get 4 weeks off! Now who wants to lend us toy... be great to get pictures of the internals and the individual componentry also. Interesting for me and enlightening for those more technical! May also give the AM's of this world a chance to play with group handles, shower screens and potential descale proceedures! I could also get some photos in more than 2.7 lumens of light!!!!

GaryatGala · October 2011

When you have a machine like the Breville in the majors, it's a matter of time before it will be approx. 1.2K to 1K around christmas, and that's a short time from when it was released for 1.5K mid year. Does anyone have a crystal ball that can tell us what it will cost mid next year? ;D A lot of positive comments about this machine, so even though someone buys this one now, and find out the price drops another $100 come christmas, they shouldn't feel disheartened as it is a category killer with features of cafe machines. Gary at G

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