ECM Giotto or similar, recomendations.

DrHemi · July 2004

Hi, I'm new to the forum and was wondering what you all think about the ECM Giotto.
I've had the use of a Krups and Moulinex machines for about 7years and was considering buying a new machine.
I started out looking at the Gaggia Classic (because of the comercial group) then moved on to the Rancilio Silvia and have found that after a few capps, shots etc that there will be a lag between batches.
I considdered the Expobar and Isomacs (Tea and Millenium) but realised the wife factor (- she likes the way the Giotto looks) and am at present thinking it may be a better choice.
I went to the Sydney coffee festival (Aroma) and was dissapointed to find nothing there.
It wasn't until I spoke to a friend who informed me - on his expedition to a tiolet - he found all the machines.
Where reps there with machines available to use inside one of the buildings at the Rocks.
They need either a flyer or some sort of idication of where they are.
Anyway, the net has been usefull.
Any ideas on a grinder and price or local distributor in the Sydney region would be appreciated.
Thanks, Chris.

john · July 2004

Chris Shame you missed the Giotto at the Aroma festival. It was there upstairs in the overseas terminal. I have had a Giotto Classic on my bench for the past 14 or so months. Never missed a beat. Great coffee everytime. Easy to use. If you purchase one, I recommend that you couple it up with a grinder. And obviously use fresh coffee. I have just passed on my Giotto to another Forum Member and replaced it with an ECM commercial single group (for business purposes). Some say that the Giotto is pricey. You get what you pay for out there. Having had the pleasure to road test this machine for over a year, I was impressed. It is one hell of a serious espresso machine. I am fortunate to also have a commercial grinder, fresh coffee etc. With the Giotto you can extract espresso and steam milk at the same time. There is no time lag here. The Giotto will make espresso as quick as you can pack the group handle. It can also be plumbed into the water supply. OK, yes, I do sell these machines also. However, after using one for the past 14 months, I would not recommend it, if it did not live up to its claims. JD

FreshCoffee2 · July 2004

Hello Chris, no I dont import them but I do sell them, and the Rancilio Miss Silvia is simply the best manually operated DOMESTIC espresso machine in the under $1000.00 bracket in this country, beating any of the others you mentioned hands down. In addition, beware what you read...as far as I know there is no "commercial group" on a domestic Gaggia Classic machine...it is simply a commercial SIZED filter or group handle, on a domestic machine. Domestic machines have limitations, usually manifesting themselves when you are trying to entertain a group of people with them. If you dont entertain much, the best of them make excellent espresso coffee machines. You mentioned that with the Miss Silvia you "...found that after a few capps, shots etc that there will be a lag between batches...." do you mean you bought one and this is what you found, or is this something you have read? If it is only something you have read, please take it with a grain of salt as its performance is better than any other domestic machine in the market that I know of, and it is very seldom that any domestic user would use a domestic machine continuously/continually to produce a great number of coffees. In essence then, if such fault has been found, it means the machine has been "over" used or used OUTSIDE its design parameters. That said, any espresso machine has to be MANAGED properly when asked to produce continually, and notice that even a 4 group commercial espresso machine with a 25 litre boiler will be out of its league if asked to produce coffee for a bus load of tourists. So everything is relative. If you are interested in a Giotto then you must also take a serious look at the Diadema Junior, Arte Di Vittoria Junior Plus, or the Diadema Unico Splendor, as they are competing in the same market (the "semi-commercial" machine market). These machines all perform extremely well and make excellent coffee. Take a look at our website to see pictures of the Junior, and Junior Plus. We also have 2 other Junior models that are not yet depicted on the site, they offer different "cosmetics". Yes you should have a grinder. Grinders of the calibre you require start at around $220.00 and go up to just under $500.00. Once you hit the $220.00 level the quality of the grinds is not in question, and as you go up in price you are basically talking standard of build and cosmetic look of body. Good luck, FC. to take a look at the "Equipment" part of our website please click on my name (in red) at the top LH of this reply to your post. Find the link to our company website.

john · July 2004

Chris Although not having tried the various models FC has mentioned, I have read and received good reports on them. You can trust what FC says. I look forward to catching up with FC soon for him to show me the finer points of the equipment he imports/sells. JD

DrHemi · July 2004

Hi all, I've been too busy to get back here to respond - sorry. FC - you are right about the Silvia specs. Commercial sized group, as with the Gaggia. Neither has an E61. I was intending to purchase Silvia, until my wife saw a Giotto that I was looking at. It was discussed and I must have "sold" it enough to get the go ahead - as well as a grinder! Then my search began... I've looked at second hand single group commercial machines (used caffe' supply and business equipment wholesalers), the coffee guy in Riverwood Sydney CWE with the Isomacs and Wega's, and to chain stores such as Mega Marts, Harveys and Domains. Also to Boema, Bezzera and Migliore (BFC Junior). In the end it may boil down to the Wega (manual for 2015) and Bezzera BZ99 (1600). Neither looks as good as the Giotto (Isomacs excluded), and I have read a lot of positive reviews. The doserless grinders at CWE look like a good match as well. FC, where is your website? :-/ Cheers, Chris.

FreshCoffee2 · July 2004

Chris, please please please please please...stay right away from second hand catering equipment resellers and department stores. The first, because you dont know what you're getting into and the second, because they cant sell you what you say you are looking for which is the top end of the market. Neither can service your after sales service

michael · August 2004

I too am now wanting to buy the ecm premium giotto..read great reviews........was going to get the isomac millenium, but seeing the giotto is the same price I have gone towards it also. the plastic lip on the ecm premium looks average but ive read it can be reviewed. where can i find one in melbourne preferably sydney secondly.. I understand I can get one for about $1200.00 is this correct. I also want it direct plumbed as Im building my kitchen and have the time and place. anyone point me in the right direction. thanks

michael · August 2004

me again, sorry i meant to write ecm and millenium price $2200.00 and remove the plastic lip from the Giotto is possible, not reviewed. thanks for the help of the members. michael

pab · August 2004

Michael, The plastic lip is removable - it's purely personal choice whether you want it there or not. I've had our ECM Giotto Classic for almost 2 months and can't imagine life without it (sad I know). Good luck and enjoy Pab

michael · August 2004

thanks PAB getting ecm premium too. i see DANES in sydeny do a great deal so looks like i will go there. was going to get isomac millenium but most others say the giotto is a better finish etc. PAB where did you get yours from... direct email me if you like. i need direct plumb also and was quoted 95.00 for it. cheers michael

FreshCoffee2 · August 2004

Michael, as a coffee roaster and machine inporter / merchant with many years experience I can honesty tell you that for domestic use, you are wasting your money on a "plumb in" machine. There is no advantage to having a machine plumbed in at home, in fact as far as I am concerned it is a disadvantage...pay extra for a plumber; pay extra for the machine "plumbing kit", drill an unnecessary hole in your bench top or wall; ***absolutely no advantage to machine coffee brewing performance***; possibility of occasional flood inside cupboard/kitchen, cost of replacement water filters every 6 months; inconvenience to fit replacemnenbt water filter every 6 months (if you remember), inability to move machine around eg out onto patio for entertaiment etc etc etc. Many believe that if a machine has a plumbing connection that it is somehow more "commercial" or heavy duty. Not so I'm afraid in the semi-commercial machine category. All that said I am the first to admit that of you have your heart set on a plumb in job, go fot it. Goodluck, FC.

michael · September 2004

thanks FC I will have days where we use the machine a lot and others none so it was conveniance. the plumbing does not bother me as i do it myself....and my kitchen holes dont matter. I wish the giotto had a drain hole in the drip tray as well. i have a filter on line for my water anyway. im in melbourne FC........do you recommend a filter and softener on line or just normal filter as is ??? thanks heaps for the advice ...it all helps. its amazing what people do to their homes with machines,,,,my friend has a huge commercial monster plumbed into his house, no doubt burning up power as its on always......he loves it....cost a mint...........trouble is all his friends walk in and want caffe latte etc when they see the machhine and he gets tired of it sometimes......tradesmen at his house also see it and ask for one. i guess other forum members get it too,,,,,i know its nice to make expresso for friends but can you ever make them instant ?? thanks again FC michael

Unknown · September 2004

buy a grinder a cupping spoon and a couple of bowls and be done with it at a eighth of the price.

john · September 2004

Michael The drain problem for the Giotto is not an issue if one knows what they are doing. The filter problem is an issue. As there are filters and filters. Water softeners are another issue. I actually have one on my whole house and have experimented with heating appliances using softened water and mains water. Are there differences? Yes! I also ran my Giotto on the softened water. Differences? Yes! gottta go Jd

DrHemi · September 2004

Its been a while since I last visited. Its all happening. Thanks FC for all the info and emails. I've noticed that some Harvey Norman stores are stocking the Electra brand esspresso machines. Also noticed a store on Forest road at Bexley - appointment only. Drool material. At a Winnings (appliance) store recently in Crows Nest I saw Bezzera machines on display. Still prefer the Giotto. When I went to Bezzera's office in Alexandria, I was led through the repair centre. There were about 5 machines of the small single group variety in various stages of dissrepair. A couple of autos and a few manuals - turned me off. Also I didn't notice E61 group on any of the machines. Maybe its behind the facia plate? Still Giotto!

FreshCoffee2 · September 2004

Chris, if you are interested in Elektra, ask yourself whether you want the best possible looking ornament, or the best possible espresso machine. The E61 group is in my opinion a very good thing if fitted to a machine that employs good engineering in every other facet of its engineering as well, BUT it is not the be all and end all of how to judge machines against eachother. The Bezzera Bz02 anf the Bz19 (or whatever the smallest one is called) do not have E61 groups but they have to be measured according to what they do for you, not on the basis of whether they have an E61 group or not. There might be 4 or 5 of them in the workshop, but ask yourslef how many have been sold in Sydney area and surounding areas over the years and whether you think this is a reasonable number to find in thre agent's workshop requiring service....and if this sounds like a favourable plug from me, spare me a thought for giving sound professional advice EVEN THOUGH I DO NOT SELL THEM...AND... have my own brand to push which does employ the E61 group and which is a better semi-commercial machine than anything else that has been mentioned in any discussion under this topic here so far.... Michael, in answer to your question about filters...yes it is the best idea to have a softener / filter in the water line feeding a plumbed in machine, BUT you have to keep after the thing to make sure it keeps softening and filtering over time or you will end up like every other cafe owner THAT NEVER DOES ANYTHING ABOUT THEIR FILTERS AND SOFTENERS AND EXPECT THEM TO LAST 30 YEARS without regeneration or replacement. And in closing, WHAT A GREAT IDEA to make yourslef and your machines look SO EXCLUSIVE, that the public can only attend to view and or demonstrate BY APPOINTMENT. Have we reached the unfortunate stage where the general public has gone completely mad and can be hoodwinked by this kind of bull dust marketing? Mad as hell today, open 9 hours a day Mon to Friday and 3 hours on Sat morning, for demonstration without appointment. Now what was the question again? FC.

Unknown · September 2004

thanks FC I will email you off line friday re question on a note re the ELEKTRA- I am trying to buy a ELEKTRA MINI DELIZIOSA A3 CHROMR....brass second. second hand preferably. I will post on the main trade page but FC you mentioned you used to sell them, do you know what price I will pay new ?? second hand ?? I understand they may be hard to come by second hand so will post accordingly. Havent rung Elektra yet but will next week to see if they can help. Dont want a new one as I cant afford it. I know they are overpriced but looks have me. I have a millenium, and soon Giotto premium, so moving up 1 notch. I often wondered about filters in machines in cafes....I have seen a few covered in cob webs and tons of dust. I kid you not, would have been untouched for over ten years and we are talking major shops and cafes. I actually asked one large cafe owner about it and he didnt know it was a water filter and was glad I told him as he always wondered. He then walked off and had no intention of changing it. you have a nice website also FC. My canberra friends who are coffe lovers are going to drop in. cheers jenn

Reschsmooth · September 2004

Chris, Went into Winning Appliances today - the Bezzera's and Brugnetti's (sp - possibly same maker, I don't know) looked like they were there by accident. Tell you what, the steaming arms didn't seem to flexible!

FreshCoffee2 · September 2004

Hi Jenn, the mini deliziosa A3 in the last form I remember when we were last importing E's (around 6 years ago) was chrome bodied. It had a lever operated group. It was part of E's "sixties" range which were simply compact commercial machines with flat chrome body, required plumbing. Yep they looked quite good if you like that kind of simplistic, minimalist fashion. Previous to that (a couple of years or more earlier) the A3 was equipped with regular electric (solenoid) group in semi-automatic form, with flat painted body. Simply another commercial compact machine. In terms of age, you will find the year of manufacture stamped in their compliance plate. In this market they are rare. Please do not misunderstand the use of the word rare...it has nothing to do with "collectability" or some kind of perceived special value...just that there are very few around due to few being imported / sold here. Price indication...honestly as stated previously, whatever someone is willing to pay. Remember what I wrote earlier in response to someone else.....you have to make up your mind whether you want an ornament or an espresso machine and if it is the latter, you have to value it according to whether you think it makes espresso well, or better than what you are already using, in the condition that it is presented for you to purchase. Thank you for your kind comments with regard to my company website. Goodluck, FC.

Unknown · September 2004

I am also looking at the ECM Giotto premium but have been put of due to lack of stockists in Melbourne. The way i see it if no one is stocking them here how long will i have to wait if it did break down and had to wait for repairs. I rang the distributors and it seems only 2 places in Melbourne sell them. 1 of them is a small coffee shop which never holds stock so you can't use it. The other is a proper store but always closed or never anyone there. Absolutely useless indeed

john · September 2004

PPIART Sorry to read that you are having trouble locating a Giotto in Melb. If you have no further luck, we can organise to ship one to you. There should not be any problems with service. There are a couple of experienced persons in Melb. who can repair the Giotto, if, in the unlikely event something goes wrong. If you wish further details please email me directly. Also look at the Crema For Sale section for our offer to forum members. JD

Unknown · September 2004

Hello John, yea i noticed you had one in the for sale section, but the biggest problem is actualy using or should i say testing one. But i did get an e-mail this morning from the shop i bought my Mazzer mini from and they told me they will be getting one in early next week to evaluate. I have been offered to go to this store and play with it all i want. This would be great as they also have the grinder i will be using so he can walk me through the whole process. Again thanks for the offer and if all else fails here in Melbourne i will definately take you up on your offer.

john · September 2004

PPIART They are a great machine. Easy to use and easy to clean. As mentioned in previous comments I used one for about 13 months daily. It did not miss a beat. With the right fresh coffee and a grinder, you will really enjoy the Giotto once you finally buy one. I would rather you buy one locally for obvious reasons. Good luck. JD

Unknown · September 2004

ppiart the web site here in the for sale column does members no favours price wise. ECM premium is available a lot cheaper from danes in sydney..they will ship it also and provide melbourne service..... tried to get one in melbourne also but quoted to much you can get one for about 2200.00 email me privately im sure the one here (crema) is a great company but 350 dollars is a big difference. where is the shop displaying the machine in melbourne to you.........i would like to go along also. thanks

Unknown · September 2004

The place in Melbourne is the coffee company. I bought my Mazzer Mini grinder from them yesterday and it was delivered the same day. Great service indeed. Alex who i believe runs the store told me he will call me and let me know as soon as they arrive, he said erly next week. the address is 260 Carlisle Street, Balaclava.

Gonzo · September 2004

The internet is a wondereful thing. You say the trader adv Giotto in here is doing no favours price wise. lets see: FORUM OFFER includes commercial quality; knock tube, tamper, cleaning powder and group head brush, 2 kg premium coffee beans, 6 picollo and 6 latte glasses, stainless steel milk jug, blind filter. Email for further info and interstate enquiries. knock tube, anodise aluminium around $60.00; metal tamper (depending on seller) around $50.00 tub of group cleaner (depends on brand) say 25.00. group head brush & Blind filter..free with some machines 2 kilo fresh coffee around 50.00 unless your bag is 11.00 per kilo from woolies, a truly qulity item; 12 coffee glasses, in proper heatproof say around 18.00 milk jug around 15.00 and possibly freight and Ins included. You will never stop traders discounting themselves downwards in a spiral, many advertising on the net advertise low. When you do that, you cant go back up, and the next trader that reads that price, advertises at an even lower rate. These discount turkeys dont need to give you any service, they are just an intermediary between you and the importer. They have done nothing for their money, and keep prices low for other traders that offer service. Service costs money. Did you contact the Crema advertiser, advise you are serious about a purchase and not a tire kicker, and would be prepared to give him your credit card number immediately if he would match the lower price Did the Crema advertisere give you any advice (service) within this forum, did the Melbourne discounter give you any "service"? one other trader in here has given a bucket load of advice, has anyone thought to ask him whether he can supply the item of your choice? Yes the internet is a wonderful thing... G. choking on morning soy piccolo latte served in a glass on a saucer with doilie....spare me please.

Unknown · September 2004

g better think clearly yes trader was contacted...... no they wouldnt match price danes provide lots of free.......and training course free to buyers of upper end machines...advice and after sales and shipping and free coffee and extras...all sellers of pro end machines have throw in extras....i have bought three so called machines as have lots of friends...all get coffee..tampers etc....at wholesale they are add ons done in any smart business. no wasnt internet special.didnt see it there at all.was told by other people who have bought off them. no discount turkeys here.... just people who are in business to sell cheaper and retain customers longer term.. moving with the times as we all have to even my company. g keep choking on your morning coffee and get your facts right before you reply.. im sure the trader here is great,.. but so are others...and price does matter when the service is the same... cheers

Unknown · September 2004

I agree with Gonzo in a way. I would not purchase such a machine from purely an on-line store. yea i have seen great prices on this machine on-line also and could have had one already, but i feel its better to find a store that actualy carries them, go there and purchase. You pay a price for service and if the owner of the store is prepared to spend an hour or two with you going over all the points of the machine that is also worth something. Like i said i am now a happy camper that he coffee company is gitting these machines in as i can go there set it up and since they also have my grinder find the best settings etc etc etc. On-line sellers can afford to price them alot cheaper than your average store, purely because they don't have the huge overheads a store does. But personal service is were its at and i am more than happy to pay slightly more for this service

Gonzo · September 2004

My job here is to play the devil's advocate, someone has to do it, and nothing that has been said in reply to my last post changes my line of thinking....my facts are straight enough & I dont see what they have to do with anything given some very pertinent questions were simply asked. I am sorry (for him, having apparently lost a sale), that our Crema Giotto trader could not come to some arrangement that would be mutually beneficial to both parties. I am also sorry to see that traders that dont apparently help anyone from within this forum, get a free plug in here. Oh well, that's life! G. bitter and twisted and loving it!

john · September 2004

Gonzo Thanks for the support. I am the trader on the Crema site. I do not remember being contacted and asked to match a competitors price. If contacted, I am sure that I could have come to an arrangement. I have some happy Forum customers and will stand by them and the products that I have sold. John

john · September 2004

PPIART As mentioned previously I recommend that you purchase locally. Following your post I immediately contacted the importer and advised him of your problem sourcing one locally. I believe that he is rectifying the current situation. I also agree about buying of the net. It is great to touch and play with an intended purchase especially when spending so much money. Although, I can say, that I can sell the Giotto with confidence. WHY? Well I have used one every day for over 12 months and have sold them to a number of extremely happy clients. Good luck with locating a machine in Melb. It will be worth the wait. JD

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